An Anthropologist's Perspective on Nonviolent Communication Through Art of Listening

Adam: 

Welcome to This Anthro Life, where we delve into the layers of the human experience and the intriguing crossroads of culture, anthropology, and our everyday lives. I'm your host, Adam Gamwell. In today's conversation, we're going off script to explore the transformative power of vulnerability and the quest for authenticity in a world that often demands polish and perfection. I'm speaking with Dr. Nethra Samara-Kramer, an anthropologist who left the trodden path of academia to carve a niche where listening transforms lives. From the gem-trading networks of Sri Lanka to the quiet desperation of academic writer's block, Nether helps us explore what happens when the frameworks and theories that we clung to fall apart under the weight of real experience. She asks, how does one pivot from researching the tangible to coaching the intangible? So stick around as we discover the art of listening beyond words, the courage to face the unknown, and how embracing the messiness of life can unlock paths that we never dared dream of. This isn't just a story about anthropology or academia or careers. It's about finding oneself amongst the ruins of expectation and emerging on the other side, not just intact, but transformed. So Nethra's story challenges the conventional, reminding us that sometimes to change the world, we might just need to change the frequency that we tune into. So ready to challenge what you thought you knew? You're in the right place. Let's tune in to this Anthro Life.

Nethra:::

First, it's such a delight to be here with you and to share this journey of Anthro within and beyond the Academy. So I just want to start by saying I'm really glad to be in a shared space of thinking and dreaming together. And about my story into anthropology, I think for me, I would say the thing that captivated me the most about anthropology was this notion of situated perspectives. It's the thing you learn about in Anthro 101. And I was someone who grew up in Sri Lanka. I came to the US for undergrad and then grad school, and I had a real sort of yearning to go back and do field work in Sri Lanka. And it was this process of actually like finding the familiar, defamiliarized. And then, you know, returning to work with, so my research was in on the gem trading world of Sri Lanka and the Indian Ocean region. I won't go into the long story of that research, but But one of the things that really captivated me was this question of how can you actually be with a group of people, a community? I worked with mine workers, I worked with traders from different parts of the Indian Ocean region. And the constant question was, how can I stay in a space of unknown to begin to see if I can get close to what the experience is like? from their perspective rather than my own. And that was for me, it was the listing process that was the most sort of enticing thing about anthropology for me. And it's ultimately what drew me out of the academy as well.

Adam: 

Funny how that can happen. So tell me a little bit about that. There is something, I think, that's fundamentally powerful about one of the base anthropological dictums of, as you mentioned, making the strange familiar and the familiar strange by trying to see something that might be familiar to you as if it was something that was quite different or not what you expect, or seeing with beginner's eyes, we might say. And what was that experience like for you? And how did that play into this idea of kind of thinking about what does it actually mean to listen? I love this idea too, because so much of anthropology, especially field work, is collecting in data and interviews and observing and trying to get a sense of what's happening in this world. But one of the big challenges that we can run into is that, whether we call them gatekeepers or people that like, we're the insider outsider. So it can be hard to get people to share stories sometimes or kind of really open up. And so I'm curious how listening helped with that process, right? Because oftentimes we find we come in, again, as this outsider and it's a curious thing that I certainly felt to it in fieldwork that I think listening is a profoundly important piece of providing space, I guess. But I'm curious about your experience in that and how listening played that role in kind of opening up or cracking the nut, as it were, of what's happening in this world.

Nethra: 

Yes, I love the question. I think with fieldwork, this thing sort of happens at so many different levels. But with fieldwork, I think one of the big questions was, you know, you go in with all your preparation, right? Your theoretical frameworks, the thing that your research question, the thing that you're on a mission to figure out, right? And that thing is the thing that's important to you and to the discipline. And then there's a question of what's important to the people you work with. And so much of field work for me was actually to, through the course of field work, slowly, slowly let go of the thing that I thought I needed to know and to discover actually what was important to be understood from the perspective of the people I was working with. And I love how Rosaldo, you know, in his article about Grisha the Headhunter's Rage, he talks about, you know, if your question doesn't change over the course of fieldwork, something has been best slain. And so it was that very, it was being in the unknown and an ongoing question of what, how do I need to listen for what is significant for them to share, you know? I'll give you an example. I worked with mine workers and these were wageless workers. They worked for sometimes six months without a wage for a share of the profits of the gems that they would find. Sometimes they wouldn't know whether they would even find gems. And so the work that I did was to sort of understand, like, it was very speculative work and they were speculating with their labor. They weren't speculating with capital. It was really with their own bodies that they were putting at risk. And the narrative was that these people were wasteful, that they were gambling with their lives, gambling with their time. But they said, we don't want to do any other work. And so the question was why? You know, what was, what kind of meaning did they find in their work that I could not see coming in with my sort of Marxist notions of exploitation? And so that was the thing. It was this long process of being like, how can I, even in solidarity and hold my own outrage at the fact that they weren't being paid, hold that aside and ask, really, what was happening in there? What was the work of that work for them?

Adam: 

No, I love that too, because it really holds this notion that work is not necessarily alienating in the way that we might take from a Marxist perspective, or I mean, I imagine it also was, but at the same time, it's not only the notion that we might come into the field with in terms of what's happening with labor exploitation, I don't own the means of my own production and elements like that. which are valid in terms of framing and how we can think about labor and work. But at the same time, I think this is a beautiful example that we take something that sounds like very speculative labor of one's body and one's health. Mining is an incredibly dangerous industry in anywhere in the world, really. And then I'm also thinking of examples of coltan mining that we've seen in parts of East Africa as well. And so this interesting notion of this very dangerous type of labor that also has the speculative angle to it, but Similarly, this work has a meaning to it that is not purely capital-based, right? Right. And I love your point in how to think about, how do I learn to listen to what that is versus trying to … I mean, it's not quite prescriptive, right? I mean, I guess I'm trying to think about this like, so if we can think to other graduate students or anthropologists or social scientists that might be in the field, or thinking about field work, how do we help that framework of listening be part of the equation?

Nethra:

 Yes. And it's one of the things that, it's a very humbling experience, I think, you know, it's a humbling experience on two counts, which is that you, you come away with all your exams, right? You do your comprehensive exams, you read 300 books, right? Or whatever is expected of you. And then you go and you realize you're clueless. When you're in the field and you're lost, all of that shines out the door. And to me, that is where the real work begins, you know. And for me, I think, but there was another tension that happened, which is, you know, you can not even know what another's reality is. But I think fieldwork brings us a little bit closer and to do at least understanding what the significance of what people are doing for themselves. But then there's that work of translation when you get back from PLRC, back into academic life. And then there's this sense of what knowledge is significant to produce. And I found myself at this tension between the world that I wanted to convey that was very much an ethnography from the ground up that had to do with what was significant for the people I worked with, and the places that I worked in and this pull to create an intervention that was significant for anthropology and for the field. And so there was this constant tension about, you know, who is this knowledge being produced for? And for me, that was where I really hit writer's block in a profound way, because I, I realized that to honor the, the deep listening that I wanted to do, And to convey the things I wanted to convey meant that I had to sort of hold at bay the pressure to perform and the pressure to produce the kind of knowledge that would sort of move me further along in the academic track.

Adam :

 I think that's a profoundly important point in that we're not here to necessarily totally shame graduate school, but it's worth raising these questions, I think, because you're 100% right that there is this tension between what do we find and experience in the field when we're trying to practice radical empathy. And ourselves are quite vulnerable bodies and selves in a state of flux, right? I think there's some deep truth to the idea that can the anthropologist ever really go home, right? And I remember feeling this profound sense of, I learned years later, I started calling it feeling like you're unmoored, like the boat, the ship is off the dock, but it's not sinking. It's just in the water. It's not really anywhere right now. And that was this profound sense of you find some semblance of home and field. You have some semblance of home from where you were before you went to the field.

Nethra: 

Right.

Adam: 

No. And then returning from the field with this new set of experiences and knowledge that I think, as you wonderfully said too, about how we actually think about this from the ground up. But then we get hit with these questions of what is the knowledge that we need to produce in order to move X forward, and X ultimately then like, what's X or Y? And X weighs more if it is the academy in anthropology or the field, and Y is the people's experiences that we actually spend time amongst. And there is that, I think that is indeed a tension. That is, it's profoundly difficult. And so, I mean, tell me a little about that too. So it's like writer's block, it sounds like played an important role in kind of reshaping your thinking about what would come next.

Nethra: 

Yes, I joke about it as like a profound gift of writer's block. Because in getting out of that block, I actually found my way into doing what I'm doing right now, which brings me so much joy, which has a thread of continuity with what I loved about anthropology and fieldwork. So I think for me, and this, you know, is something I take responsibility for and I've seen in so many other people. And I think that It's not just within the academy. I see this in so many different fields as well, which is this feeling of being stuck between accessing the things that you want to say when you write, for instance, and then fearing that that will not be accepted and trying to balance this tension. So in anthropology, that was like, what's my big intervention? What's my theoretical takeaway? What's my argument? And that had a very kind of external focus, right? Because of the publication process, because of even writing like job applications and postdoc applications, you're constantly like framing the thing that you know, or reframing it in order to fit into something that's external to the thing that you did. Yes. So that was my struggle. I'd be very open about it. So it was a complicated process. And I think for me, I just couldn't do it. I was stuck. And so interestingly, alongside my graduate training, I had started to explore mediation, conflict mediation. And the way in which I did this was that I was interested in process practice framework called nonviolent communication, which was something that Marshall Rosenberg, who was a clinical psychologist, had created. many, many years ago and is practiced worldwide now in conflict resolution. And I started going to workshops and classes that really focused on listening. And one of the things that I found, and this was a complete accident and it was a surprise, that a couple of times a week I would be in San Francisco taking these workshops and I had a very stark experience where I would show up at these workshops. I would be at the other end where someone else was doing the listening and I was just speaking and I was sharing whatever was happening for me. It was this startling feeling of actually saying whatever was happening in the messiest, most inarticulate way, having the freedom to be inarticulate. and knowing that there was a person at the other end who was really interested in understanding what was real for me. And so it was this first glimmer of feeling of like, I don't have to perform and being like, I can be in an inquiry into myself and my own experience and be supported in that, in all of its messiness. and be heard and then we would switch roles and I would do the listing and I would see that same feeling of relief. in the other person's eyes. And then I would wake up the next morning, I'd come back to my books and my writing, and suddenly I would find that my mind had cleared. And it was the days after I had taken those workshops that the most lucid writing happened. So it was this odd experience that I had initially of being like, when I'm in a conference, or if I'm sort of in a space where there was a lot of debate, and I had to defend my ideas, a part of me was shutting down and I couldn't actually access the things that I really wanted to say because of the pressure of that performance. But once I was heard, the writing slowed. So that was the first flash of being like, there's something really interesting here. What is happening? Does that make sense?

Adam:

 Yeah, no, that's wonderful. I love the idea that there's, I mean, there's a couple of things here. There's more than a couple, but there's a lot of great things here that, you know, one, that there is this often unspoken, but it seems like increasingly, I'm actually thankful to see that people are more and more pointing out the fact that there is pressure performance. I mean, in most social roles, but like, especially in the academic circuit and in so many kinds of roles that we have. And so, you know, A, recognizing that there are There's something profoundly important about being able to let go of that. And it's awesome to hear that these workshops sound great. I want to totally try these now. That there's this okay space for messiness. And really, I think that sometimes what can be just the deepest desire when you're trying to structure the most structured thing of all time, a dissertation, an argument that you have to write a book for the first time, for many of us the last time. You know, that is also, as you said too, fundamentally about what is the argument that someone's going to debate with you. And that is a, you know, it's essentially like that, that requires, you know, a desire to kind of perform that certain way. And we aren't taught or told that, and nobody's hiding it from students or learners, but we often, I mean, I'm using graduate school as an example, but also just in life in general too, that we don't acknowledge their performance as such a key part of these kinds of roles to the extent that then we take them to be cemented and fully I guess, right? We reify them, to use a $10 word, right? That they're real. But then we get these moments, these workshops, in this case, in your story, a nonviolent communication workshop that let that veneer go down. And there's a realness, it sounds like, that's behind that, that I think is so powerful. And it's amazing to then see that or hear that after that, then the writer's block took a break for a little while. It's almost like just learning to attend to when we're blocked and why, right? Almost.

Nethra: 

I love that word, attending. Yeah, I love that word, attending to when we're blocked. when we're blocked and why. And that has been a journey of inquiry. And I think I also want to kind of humanize this process of performance because I think that graduate school is kind of one crucible in which this, you know, really bubbles up. But I see it across, you know, I see tenured professors still struggling. I see people, you know, at the end of their career still like feeling that pressure. And I see it outside the academy as well. Now I work with people in tech, I work with artists and that sort of tension between, you know, what's real inside and what will get me legitimacy outside, I think is an ongoing struggle for so many people and so many different.

Adam: 

You know, I think that that's, that's so, so wonderfully said too. And I think that's such an important and profound piece of You know, this is actually one of the pieces that ironically inspired me to want to go to graduate school was anthropologist Michael Jackson, not the pop star, but the New Zealand anthropologist, you know, kind of built a theoretical framework on existential anthropology. And it was kind of built a bit on this axis where there's always this tension between who I think I am and who I feel that I am on the inside and then what the world tells me that I am. And so I hear an echo in what you're saying here too. And so I love the idea of actually part of this work is actually humanizing the performance. And it's, you're a hundred percent right. Like this is not about graduate school at all. This is an example, but that we see this in the professional world, a hundred percent with how we act with our families on some level, with how we act with our friends, right. With who I am if I'm out on a bike ride. You know, performance is part of who we are, and it's interesting that anthropologists will talk about people as actors. And I didn't understand that for a long time. I was like, we're not faking it. And it's like, no, we're not. But we are also acting. But there is, I think you're right, there is this fundamental tension between what's kind of real inside and what will also give me that kind of external legitimacy. So, I don't know. Yeah. I think providing more real spaces for that is fundamentally important. I guess this idea of nonviolent communication I think is fascinating and great and I think the world needs more of it, but I want to hear a little bit more. If folks are not familiar with it, I'm going to ask a really dumb question. What is nonviolent communication the opposite of? Is it typically violent communication?

Nethra:

 I love the question and this is something, the name nonviolent communication is something that I can't speak for Marshall Rosenberg and I think that it's a name that This is the closest thing I think he could find to the thing that he created, to name the thing that he created. Again, I can't speak to him, but I can speak from my own perspective of my experience of it. If there is an opposite to it, it's communication that is full of judgment and it's communication that is evaluative, that disconnects people, that puts people in boxes and alienates them from their own needs and from each other. And so what nonviolent communication as a framework does is that it's about really supporting people in listening for their own needs and listening for the needs of other people, which are not easy to get. So for me, it's a very beautiful process of actually looking underneath the surface of the words that people say, the actions that they take to understand what is it that's driving them to do the thing that they're doing or to say the thing that they're saying. I think this is where my attraction to NVC and my attraction to anthropology came from a similar source, which is really this pull towards understanding and curiosity about what is going on behind the surface that we can't see. There's a very kind of humanizing quality about that, that we don't have to be in agreement with someone to see the world from that perspective. And so one of the things that I have really gained from NVC is this capacity, both in terms of the way in which I have learned to listen, but also been listened to, is you make space available for people to express the messy, contradictory realities that they experience. You know, and you're not trying to move someone in any particular direction when you listen, but you're really trying to capture the heart of the experience and then ask them if you really understand it. And if you don't understand it, they can tell you that you didn't get it and it's okay. So in this process of, and this is what I, now I work as a coach and what I really try to do is support people in accessing what's really happening inside them. providing a space for them to go inside and find that one.

Adam:

I love that. That, A, sounds amazing. And so number one, sign me up for a coaching session. But I think that that's, no, but thank you for articulating that. That's A, super clear. And I think it's so important to hear, just to think about, and giving us a moment as humans ourselves listening to this podcast or, you know, How do we listen, right? And are we taking the time to hear where the other person is coming from and why? And I think also, I love this idea that conversation is not about convincing somebody of something or getting your point across. It's really about providing space that one can be inverse with someone in essence, right? And listen and say, did I understand that right? And how does that, I love this idea too, of like, how does this help us get a sense to what's really happening under the surface? Did you find that, you know, when people would participate in these events, or yourself too, in a session or two that, you know, I mean, on one level, this sounds like really nice therapy, and it sounds like more actual conversation affirmation than one often gets from a therapist from Personal and experience of folks that I've talked with. And that's interesting. I want to talk both about, you're doing a lot of amazing work right now too. And so I want to use this as a segue to move into that space because a lot of your work is to my understanding, and you let me know if this is right or not. Or how much I get so far is that this is a lot of this, your work is premised around these similar ideas too, in terms of how do we open up that space and provide that kind of space for people to become into a space that they can flourish in. I think nice because it requires messiness to get there. And so I think that's super exciting, and I think it's also very exciting, not to sound like a nerd, but honestly, from a perspective of a practicing social scientist that does this work out in the world, it's super important to see, because you work with tech, and I don't know if you see this very often, but if folks decide not to go into the academy, or want to look for any kind of work outside in a practice space, the largest space that gobbles people up is user experience and UX. And I'm not going to hate on UX at all because we needed to make our software and services better, but there's so many other kinds of work that we could do. And so I think that's also, I think why I'm very excited to be talking with you now. And part of it is this, is that there's some other kinds of profound work that don't require a computer screen. So tell me about this. You mentioned before that you love the kind of work that you're doing. It's about work that makes one feel alive, in essence, which I love this idea. And so tell me a bit about how you've been through the process of rebuilding, working with the messiness, adding in nonviolent communication. I'll also just throw in there that you've also, we mentioned before that you have looked into design thinking as other kinds of methodologies. And so tell me a bit about the amalgamation, the melting pot. of methods and ideas that have come to shape the way that you're approaching your work and career now.

Nethra: 

Yes, I'm happy to share. And it has been a very messy journey, just to say that up front. A couple of things happened and there were a few key moments. One moment was when I was writing my dissertation and I was reading Marx's 1844 manuscript on estranged labor. And I was reading them to see if I could understand some things that I had found in my fieldwork. And I was gobbling up the text at such high speed. that I was realizing, no, actually I'm now reading for myself. And the phrase that really stuck out to me about what Mark said about estranged labor was that it's a kind of, you know, labor is alienated when the work that you're doing, the worker is outside of themselves at work. and inside of themselves only when they're away from work. And that line really stayed with me. And the other line that really stayed with me was that when the process of work in itself is alienating, the work is also estranged from themselves. They're not just estranged from the process of work, it's also kind of self-estranged work that happens. And so this describes this feeling I was struggling with, that it felt like I was outside of myself when I was writing, and I was only inside of myself when I was away from the page. And the question was, what is works that would really bring me back inside? And that was my guiding question. And I went back to the feeling I felt when I was in these works that I could go inside in the presence of other people. And I had that feeling of aliveness. And I also remember that writing made me feel alive at some point in the past. And so the question was, how can I get back that excitement? of being in front of a page and discovering things. And that was when I sort of stumbled upon design thinking as a part of a process of trying to unlock myself. And so I read up on it, I took a couple of classes at the Stanford Design School, and eventually it would lead me to meeting my collaborator, who's a designer. And he and I, I can say a little bit more about this later, his name is Yuri Zaitsev, and we've started the lab for this thing together. But the piece that I got from design thinking was, It's a very basic idea, actually, that the creative process is a process and it requires messiness. That basically you don't need to know what you're creating. You discover it as you go along. And using some of the methods of design thinking, like mind mapping, I started to realize that, oh, actually I could get all of the ideas out. including the ones that I thought were ridiculous, and then see what happened. And so most of my, the second half of my dissertation writing was actually writing into the dark, writing, like, without knowing what I was going to say, allowing myself to forget the outcome and be in the process and asking myself, like, what gave me pleasure and joy in doing it? And so if I needed to write, I wouldn't write, I would go for a walk and take a notebook me and I would realize that that was when the words would flow and I was actually not trying to put words on a page. And so I started to do this myself. And then Yuri and I taught a class at the Stanford Design School that was not about writing, but it was about listening. And that was an incredible experience because now we were able to put what I had learned from nonviolent communication and what he brought as a designer from design thinking together. and support people in creating a space for whatever they were experiencing to be expressed, to be held in a nonjudgmental way. And so that eight week course like completely transformed the two of us and what we saw in our students was incredible. And that was a process of relational listening, right? It was like listening to each other. So people had brought situations, you know, in their romantic relationships, at work. with families, all of the messy stuff, so social relations. And then after that, we discovered that we also wanted to think about listening to oneself and to do that through writing. And that was when we started to design a series of workshops, including one called Flow, where we supported writers and really asking this question of like, what conditions do I need to create for myself? to allow the words to flow, you know, and how can I bring myself enough safety for the voice inside me that's dying to speak to actually come out and speak.

Adam: 

That's beautiful. And so I'm curious there, did you find that in this, I mean, it's like this was for writing of any kind, right? This is not to be for a class necessarily. But I'm curious too, in terms of for those tense moments when somebody is in class, how this can be a super powerful way of freeing yourself to actually just speak. And I think kind of what you're illustrating beautifully before too, in terms of like, when I need to write, I'm going to grab a notebook and take a walk. I'm not going to be sitting and making myself looking at a cursor.

Nethra: 

Yeah, I think specifically in a classroom setting, like I remember one of our students said, this is the first class in which I feel safe to speak. And this is an engineering PhD student, like really so accomplished, but it's that performance, you know, it's that fear of getting it wrong. And so I think a part of being able to speak is that the space itself needs to be safe. Like there's an internal component and then there's a structural and relational component. And so if a space is not safe, it doesn't feel safe, I encourage people to sort of be very careful about where they speak, you know, because you want to be gentle with yourself and you don't want to make yourself vulnerable to being, you know, shut down and silent. So I think, so that's what comes up for me, you know, like the question is like, how can we actually create a classroom in which ideas can flow, which is a challenge.

Adam: 

Yeah, I mean 100% and I'm thinking about this in terms of, because like yourself too, I've taught classes for years. I'm taking an academic break right now for however long, I don't know, but I last taught in springtime of 2020. Good timing to take a break from teaching.

Nethra: 

Yes, perfect timing.

Adam: 

Not planned, but it was an easy, let's take a break here. But I think you're right in terms of that there is actually a lot of emphasis and pressure on teachers and professors and teachers of all ages, K through PhD and beyond that. There's a desire to make the educational space classroom more of a safe place. But it's interesting in terms of how we can help balance that and provide, as you noted, the relational space to have this safe area in a way that doesn't feel forced, in a way that doesn't feel contrived. I don't mean to sound denigrating in terms of how we're putting together classrooms, but it's a huge challenge, especially in terms of that we know that there's rising incidences of mental health issues on campuses around the world. And more and more students are bringing in, I'm putting in air quotes if you're not watching this, external stressors in terms of family or work life. And more and more students work while they're in school. And so what does it mean to provide that kind of safe space and an area that one can both share their internal self, but then also still function as a classroom is an interesting challenge. Because it's not traditionally what a classroom has been for, I guess. That's the main challenge, right? We didn't structurally build them to work this way. But I think what I'm kind of hearing from what you're sharing is that there are glimmers that we can find new ways of providing that kind of space. I don't know what the answer is, but we're finding, I think, more and more in the space that the inside is trying to come out more and more. And so how do we honor that? I think is the question.

Nethra: 

Yes, and this was an experiment that, I mean, it's an experiment that Yuri and I continue to run in our workshops and it's an experiment we ran in our class, but I can tell you what I've seen that has actually been helpful and, you know, it's been surprising for us also, is to create a space in which people feel safe to, or have safety, the word safety, you know, it's like an empty term now, everyone uses it all the time. But maybe a more precise way of saying it is to create a space in which people can go into their own inquiry in the presence of others and to share that inquiry while being in a process. that is incomplete and unfinished. And to access what, you know, again, makes a feel alive. So one of the things that we've done for instance, in flow is rather than talk about writing writer's block. And we would put people in breakout rooms and we would ask them to share with each other a moment in which the writing flowed with that. And when one person is talking, all the other person is doing is just listening and saying, okay, this is kind of what I heard from you today. I get it. You know, so they're not agreeing, they're not putting their own perspective in, they're not saying, oh, you know, I have another technique, right? All you're doing is just sort of taking in the person's experience, sharing what you heard. and checking in if that was accurate. And what we've seen in that process is people have said, you know, the words actually come when I'm not afraid of being judged. The words actually come when there's something inside me that I want to express. The words come when I'm relaxed, when I see some kind of, you know, either passion or enchantment or something. that feels free to come out. And so we would do that in the workshop and suddenly everyone comes back from the breakout rooms glowing. And then we would ask them, so what were the conditions and how can we create some of those conditions even for a day in your life and see what happens to the writing? And a lot of what happened is that everybody would share what their process was, and then they would share what blocked them.

Adam: 

Interesting.

Nethra:

 And there was a lot of empathy that was flowing in the room because everybody was now actually not performing for each other, but there was an open space to talk about the difficulty. And something about that created a kind of solidarity among the writers. And there was a sense of support where everybody was really attuning to each other. And two more things we would ask them, okay, so if this was the last time the world flowed, let's see if tonight you can recreate some of that, you know? Like whether it's going to a park and riding, or whether it's talking to someone who you feel safe with and riding. Just do like a page or two pages. And the next morning, so many people would come to the workshop and say, I wrote like a chapter. Or the beginnings of what became a chapter. A PhD student who took our class said, last night in 20 minutes, I managed to write down what I needed to write. And I had the first night of sleep I've had in months. Wow. Because I wasn't, you know, I got it out. And then at the end of the workshop, you know, you have people who said, I have permission. I have the permission to be in a process with others. And that I think is, you know, my dream for a classroom, right? A space where the point is to be real about what is required for learning and to be in solidarity and support rather than a pressure to perform.

Adam: 

Yeah, I think that's so well said. And I think that this, I mean, I can leave it at that. That sounds so right for, I'm trying not to judge in a positive sense either, but this sounds really good too. But I think that, thank you for sharing that, because there is, I think, such power in that framework. And so it's exciting to hear that you kind of helped put together this framework and built the space to see in a workshop. It sounds like this has helped shape and is part of the work that you have the lab for listening now, your partnership with Yuri, and you have your own coaching practice too. I'd love to dig into this and see how have these processes played out for you. Obviously, you're doing two very, very amazing and really exciting project work career paths. I don't know what the words for these things are anymore, vocations. That is exciting because it seems that this is some of the frameworks that you were like applying to yourself, but then also helping others kind of go on this journey as well.

Nethra: 

Yeah, no, thank you for the question. It is, you know, it, I really, I've been, yeah, I'm my first guinea pig. That's how I like to put it. And I think for me, so when I started out, initially my question to go loop back to what you said about, you know, the UX stuff. Initially, when I was looking for what to do after grad school, I was starting out with being like, okay, what is out there as a job that I can look for, that I can use some of my skills and fit myself into? And I kept getting this feeling of like that alienation was cropping up, you know? I mean, every place I look and I just couldn't see myself not falling into the same trap. And my question to myself was like, what is that feeling I felt in that workshop of being inside myself, you know, and how could I follow that in small incremental ways. So initially I was just like, you know, it's mediation work. And that, that was the thing that pulled me. Then, then we experimented, Yuri and I built the lab and we continue to experiment with this workshop format. And then, then I just fell upon coaching. Like I had been exploring it, thinking about it. And I had my first call with a client. And at the end of that call, I was just like, this is it. Like I just had that feeling of being completely inside myself and feeling just deeply alive. And that was like, there was no depletion. It wasn't exhausting. I had listened for an hour and I felt more energized than I felt going in. And I think it's because I really enjoy being in that process with another person. And so I think it's an iterative thing and I took a counterintuitive path. I didn't ask what was there that I could fit into, but I asked what was in here that I could express and see who I could find who would sort of gel with that.

Adam: 

That sounds right on. And so refreshing too. I imagine, myself included here, that folks listening to you share the story right now are like, I want to do that. I want to have the courage to do that and kind of, how do I be open to this, to ask myself that question, right? What makes me feel alive? And then to borrow another question, how do we create the conditions in which that can take place? For you, it sounds like, I love that you took this counterintuitive approach and then found, and found is the wrong word, built the kind of work that you wanted to do. So tell me a bit about, this is very exciting. So tell me about the kinds of folks that you work with for your coaching practice and what do you help accomplish? I'm just going to say for folks on your website, it's very cool because it says, find your yes. And it's about discovering your needs and going on a journey to realize them. So I'm hearing process, I'm hearing discovery. Tell me about what happens in this kind of work.

Nethra: 

So yes, I think if I could sort of condense what happens is that I really tried to facilitate an empathetic space in which people can really discover what matters most to them and then figure out what's blocking them from we're achieving that or finding that or creating that in their lives, you know, and slowly incrementally go through a process of unblocking it. And so this pans out in very different ways, in very different contexts. So for instance, I work with people who are looking for work that makes them feel alive. You know, many of them are in jobs that provide them a lot of security, but they're alienated from themselves and their they're like unhappy at work. Or it could be, you know, writers who find their work very meaningful, but then, you know, don't feel like there's financial support or structure or security. So that's one group of people I work with. Another group of people I work with is people who have been cut off from realizing that their needs matter for one reason or the other. And there are structural conditions that have created this. So I work with a lot of women, for instance, who are doing a lot of tending of other people's needs. in partnerships, in parenting, in elder care, in their professional lives. And the listening is a one-way process where they're doing all the work and it's not being reciprocated, you know. or they're in jobs where that were chosen for them in a sense, or relationships they thought they should have rather than the relationships that they want to be in. And so it's really about supporting people and recognizing that their own needs count, you know, and then drawing boundaries around themselves to shift away from more like imbalanced connections where reciprocity is not happening. And then the other group of people I work with, there are two more group of people who have a creative project that they're blocked from. I worked with, for instance, someone who wanted to start a podcast and was stuck, and we worked for six weeks together. And at the end of it, he had the podcast. So that was delightful and enjoyable.

Adam: 

That's good.

 If you're wondering, listeners, that was not me. That was not Adam.

Nethra: 

I just got a thriving podcast. And the final group of people I work with are couples. I love working with couples because, and they bring the notion of situated perspectives in, because there's brought so much intimacy and so much disconnection that happens in conflict and people can't see where the other person is coming.

Adam:

 It's, it's almost like, you know, you're, you're so close, you assume the person can essentially read your mind, right? Or your, or your, your nonverbal cues that you don't even realize you're doing sometimes. That's an amazing set of groups of people to work with that. I think all four are such an, a, like such important spaces in which we can provide that like room for listening and recognizing my needs count and that, uh, you know, how do we set boundaries? How do we create flow? I mean, it just sounds like such nice work. I mean, I know it's hard, but I think there's such a power in transformative work, I guess. I'm not sure what else I would call it, transforming these spaces. And to call out a term you mentioned before about enchantment or re-enchanting one's life in space, I think is such a powerful and fun antidote to the I don't know, the structural conditions and social circles that we force many of us to be in for various capacities. So that's such important work. I'm super excited to share this with folks and let … I'm just going to say, hey, go check her out. You may get a flood of rings soon. But I think that it's also, just to call this out also again, I think one of the powerful elements of your story too is that you have not only learned to find your flow, or find the process of the flow in which the current process is nice, right? Things may always change, of course, as a river. Right. Go down the river, but that's incredibly powerful and inspiring to hear, but also Like the legit reality that you are building work and vocation doing this too, I think is very powerful for me to listen to and I think for others to hear as well. So I applaud that because it's, A, the counterintuitive approach works. And there's work to be done that it's about finding our space and what makes us feel alive. And people are drawn to that too, I think. We want to be a part of that and have that for ourselves, but then I think also see that in others. It's funny, it's like this incredibly social thing to take care of oneself. And taking care of oneself in the company of others is kind of one of the themes I'm feeling here. So that's really powerful. I don't know, I just feel good. Thanks for…

Nethra: 

No, it's so delightful to share. And I love what you said, that taking care of oneself isn't such a thing, right? Because I think that it doesn't have to be either or. And I think that a part of taking the counterintuitive path, it's scary. Like I'll say that, you know, it was, it felt like leaping into the dark without knowing a lot. But a part of it, I think, is to affirm for ourselves that our needs matter too, that our needs for having agency over our time, having work relationships that are non-toxic and that are collaborative, that these things are luxuries to have, of course. in the world that we live in, in whatever context we can to carve out even some form of it where we can have access to work that's not alienating, can bring so much joy.

Adam: 

Yeah, I think that, yes, I agree a hundred percent. And I think that's to part of the point of why we're talking today as well. Thank you for this gift of conversation and that I think that that is one of the greatest gifts that we can all give each other is to help us un-alienate. What's the opposite of alienate? Unify, reunification, and I appreciate even the way, as we think about this too, in terms of, as you noted, there's the kinds of folks that you work with in your coaching practice to just understand too that this isn't all arenas of life, right? And so there's kind of every space we have and every day gives us different opportunities to understand where the blockages are, where the lack of flow is or where alienation is, and then provide ourselves the space to interrogate that and to not judge it and say that these are the things. I mean, this makes me think too in terms of mindfulness practice also. I used to deal with a lot of anxiety. I mean, I guess I still, I would be an anxious person, but it was very helpful in my own mindfulness practice in this case to not judge the anxiousness. Instead of saying, stop feeling anxious, it's saying, oh, look, That's a feeling of anxiety. And actually just saying, and I feel that way because I'm trying to protect myself. And that's a very different idea than, could be anxious, you know? And so providing that space and the space for reflection and to be mindful about the things that we take for granted, right? We take for granted that the day is crappy or that we feel anxious or something, right? And it's like, we don't need to do that. It's key for us to help people remind themselves of that, I guess, you know, and share that space with others, I think.

Nethra: 

No, I love that. And then just one other thought that came to mind just hearing you is that to me it feels like a process of coming home to oneself without that home needing to be perfect.

Adam: 

Yeah. This is the perfect wraparound to the question of can the anthropologist ever go home? The answer is yes, to themselves.

Nethra:

I love it.

Adam: 

Without it ever having to be perfect. I think that's great. Is there anything that I haven't asked, we haven't talked about yet that you want to make sure to share? I will 100% be sharing your websites on the show notes so folks can check them out. I highly recommend everybody check out the practice and the work. But is there anything else that we haven't talked about that you want to make sure we share?

Nethra:

 Yeah, I'm happy to share. One other thing that comes to mind is just in terms of, you know, things that we do, we teach a course, so Yuri and I teach a course on conversations that connect, even when it's hard. And so, I mean, we love, we love helping people experience what unalienated connection feels like. And so there's an eight week course coming up in January and, 10th of January that'll run for two months. And so we can find that on our website. And I also offer a free hour-long introductory call. So if anyone wants to just have an hour of empathy, they can, they can sign up for free. Those are, you know, two different ways to connect with us and we run Flow every few months. So that's one other way. just in terms of hanging out with us. We also hang out on Instagram at The Lab Transitioning, so you can find us there. But mostly I think the thing that I want to say that I have learned the most from this process is this difficult and yet beautiful process of holding both authenticity and care together. And authenticity, not in a notion of a monadic self, but a self-imposed self. And being able to really give oneself permission to be real with oneself. you know, about what we need. What do we need to feel safe to write? What do we need to feel comfortable to speak? And rather than beat ourselves up saying, you know, that we're inadequate because we don't, we can't push past that, but to actually give ourselves the permission to go to people who hear us in a way we want to be heard and find contexts and spaces of writing where the words don't need effort to flow. And to find working relationships and collaborations where, you know, we don't have to perform.

Adam: 

Yeah, I love it. Mic drop. Thank you so much for sharing the space today. This is a wonderful conversation. I'm taken away a lot from this. This is really great. And I'm really excited for folks to check out both the lab for listening and your coaching practice. And I'm excited too to hear that this conversations that connect even when difficult sounds awesome and great in terms of helping people get to that authentic selves and that the flow workshops are ongoing too. I think it's super exciting to see that this work continues and grows. And so I wish you well in that. And so I hope that the TAL community as well is super excited to share in this and that we can learn to continue to mix authenticity and care together in ways that we know I love this idea of being heard by people that hear you in a way that feels right to you. You said it better than that, but this idea, I think it is wonderful. That's a powerful takeaway, an episode of powerful takeaways. So thank you so much for sharing the time today.

Nethra: 

Thank you so much. Thank you for the work that you're doing. It's been such a wonderful experience for me to talk to you. So liberating to see people take anthropology in new directions. And you're sharing, you're not just doing your own journey, you're sharing it with the world. And it's a real gift. So thank you for your work.

Adam: 

As we wrap up today's episode, I find myself reflecting on the profound journey that we ventured through with Nethra Samara Rekrema. Her story, this vivid tapestry woven from threads of anthropology, listening, and the pursuit of meaning, serves as a poignant reminder of the power that lies in authentically connecting with ourselves and others. Our conversation today delves into the complexities of human connection and the courage to pursue what truly makes us feel alive. It's the courage to listen deeply, not only to the stories others share, but also to the silent whispers of our own needs. It's a journey fraught with challenges, yet rich with potential for transformation. And what Nethra's taught me, and I hope you, is through her own transition from the world of academia to the deeply personal realm of coaching and creating spaces for genuine connection, it's akin to a lesson in alchemy. The transformation of not only our own lives, but also those around us, begins with the simple yet radical act of listening. And so, as you go about your day, I invite you to ponder on this. In what ways can you, too, become alchemists in your own realm? You know, how can you relate and find and create spaces that foster understanding, empathy, and creativity? And how can listening more intently to ourselves and to those around us guide our journeys toward a life that not only feels more aligned, but is also replete with the joy of discovery and the thrill of genuine connection? So this, my friends, is the heart of anthropology. Always curious, constantly evolving, and eternally bound by the intricate weave of human connection. So until next time, stay curious, keep listening, and never stop exploring the depths of this extraordinary thing that we call life. You're listening to Adam Gamwell, and this is This Anthro Life. We'll see you next time.