Interstellar Dreams vs. Earthly Realities: Rethinking Space Exploration With Savannah Mandel

Adam: 

Welcome back to another fascinating episode of This Anthro Life, the podcast that explores the hidden corners of culture, unearthing fascinating stories, dissecting complex issues, and igniting conversations that'll tickle your intellectual curiosity. I'm your host Adam Gamwell. Have you ever wondered why going to space captivates our imagination so much? Is it the thrill of exploration, the endless possibilities, or our desire to ensure that our species has a plan B? The truth is we're a society fixated on reaching the stars, dreaming of escaping the confines of Earth and venturing into the great unknown. But amidst this cosmic pursuit, a lone anthropologist has stepped forward, questioning the urgency and relevance of human space exploration. How should we weigh the desire for interstellar colonization against the pressing issues that we face here at home? In today's rapidly changing world, where the future of our planet hangs in the balance, the question of why we strive to reach the stars becomes ever more crucial. So join me for an intriguing conversation as we explore motivations for space travel and the implications of leaving our world behind. My guest today is Savannah Mandel, an anthropologist and thought leader who has worked for years in and around the space exploration industry. Her unique insights peel back the glossy veneer of the space industry and expose a more problematic underbelly. And challenged by what she's observed, she challenges us also to rethink our priorities. And her story brings into relief ethical implications, the economic forces, and the social impact of our journey into the cosmos. It's a bold stance, one that challenges the conventional wisdom and makes you question the grand visions of the space industry. Now, I'll let you in on a little secret. The power of anthropology lies not only in unraveling the mysteries of the past, but also in shaping a better future. It's about understanding the world around us and finding innovative solutions to the complex problems that we face. And our exploration of space is not just a scientific endeavor, it's deeply intertwined with our cultural, social, and political fabric. So today I invite you on a journey through the cosmos, or at least here on Earth, as we dive into the mind of Savannah Mandel, exploring her groundbreaking research and thought-provoking arguments that challenge the very foundations of human space exploration. So whether you're an anthropology enthusiast, space junkie, or just simply curious about the world around us, subscribe to This Anthro Life, leave us a review or comment in the sections, and explore our previous episodes to witness the power of anthropological thinking in action. Let's get to it. The thing is, I love how we're seeing ethnographies now. are pretty self-reflexive in terms of bringing the anthropologist into the story. I think that's an important move that we've seen happen in anthropology, but also it's kind of showing how we're bringing theory into the real world. Oftentimes one of the critiques of anthropology is that it's so theoretical that it can be kind of abstracted away from humans themselves. And so it's been cool to see that process in your writing also of kind of bringing in both your own story and why theory matters as we're thinking about the topics that we're studying.

Savannah: 

Yeah, and I think that I started off with Ground Control and a lot of my other work thinking, well, this needs to sound like traditional anthropology and traditional ethnographic work. And as the writing process evolved and as the book unfolded, as some of my other pieces have unfolded, they became a little bit more, they boarded those lines where I was taking a more and more applied focus and taking my research and trying to ground it in what was happening in the world, but also Ground Control really is kind of this coming-of-age story of a young anthropologist. And part of the reason for writing it in that way was not just to be reflective in the way that a lot of traditional ethnographic work is reflective, where we see that positioning happening, but also because I had such a hard time researching space at first as a young anthropologist and finding my place in that world, in that subfield. And I want undergrads or young social scientists to be able to pick up the book and be like, okay, I'm not alone in wanting to study something weird. And there is a path to figuring it out. And this is how one person did that.

Adam:

I mean, one of the things that was interesting, that was like a thread through that, the story that you're telling too, is as a kind of coming of age tale, that there's one of the big challenges, and I mean, I face this too, and I think all anthropologists as they come of age do, is that they don't have a lot of confidence in their research ability and what is it that they're What access do they have? Are they asking the right questions? Are they approaching things theoretically in the right way? And so I think that speaks to your point there, that there is a huge importance of showing what that pathway can look like, right? And showing, I mean, the human and vulnerable side of both doing the research, but then like questioning, am I doing this right? So I'd love to hear a little bit your thoughts on this idea too, in terms of when you kind of think about it as a coming of age tale, is it this idea? I mean, on one level, I'm thinking about this as also the hero's journey that you set out into the wider world and into these, I think, really interesting spaces and places about space, I guess.

Savannah: 

And then really push back against what I saw, which I think is unusual for an anthropologist to do. And yeah, I totally know what you mean. With a lot of times your first fieldwork, you're taught about fieldwork in classrooms, you take methods courses, a lot of times multiple methods courses, you learn about how previous anthropologists in the past and the present day are conducting fieldwork. And you've been told in some way, okay, you're going to take notes, you're going to go home and journal, you're going to record things, you're going to interview people. But no one can really explain to you what it's like to be thrown into the field while improper. When you're like, you're literally going somewhere, and you're going to live there, secluded on your own, you know, nobody, you have no friends, maybe you don't speak the language, which is common for many, many anthropologists. And then they're like, Okay, now come back with a product. And that is so overwhelming and beautiful thing that you have to like, treat it as I've been given a lump of clay. And how do I mold it, but also how do I let other people put their hands on it and mold it with me? And I think the hardest part about it is knowing, okay, how much of myself do I put in this research? And how much do I maintain, you know, neutrality on? And this is one of the kind of founding questions we see throughout anthropological research. And this is one of the core questions throughout my book, because when I started working in the space industry, from the beginning of my space work at field space, my fieldwork at Spaceport America, through my job and research in the commercial space for commercial spaceflight industry, the more I time I spent in those spaces, the less I liked what I was seeing. And I think what's tough about that is some anthropologists go into a space where they know ahead of time, this is going to be a tough space. You know, they're like this, I'm going to be researching I don't know, like neo-Nazis. And I know neo-Nazis are awful going into it. But I didn't think to myself going into my research in space that anything was going to be bad about it. There was anything controversial. I loved space. I grew up loving space. I grew up daydreaming about wanting to be an astronaut and studying space. And I thought it was the most beautiful thing in the world. And the longer I was in the industry, the more I started hearing things like, about, well, this is why we need to colonize other places. And this is why only we deserve to go. And it was just very imperialist and very harmful. And I realized how many people were getting left out of these conversations. And it hit me hard. And it's like, okay, so what do I do with this knowledge? What do I do with the tough stuff? What do I do with the fact that I've uncovered a lot of things that don't sit well with me. And that was the point where my journey started to change a lot.

Adam: 

I think that was both an important part of the book, but then also in terms of this conversation too, that has really struck me. I empathize with that and I feel some echoes too. In my own field work, I did field work in Southern Peru with indigenous Quinoa farmers, but working with an international NGO and we're designing conservation programs for agrobiodiversity to help fight climate change. And so it's under the auspices of doing something good. And, you know, but at the same time, there's just things that happen oftentimes in the field are just how oftentimes colonial enterprises like are still echoes of how we have set up economic structures, you know, have shaped relations in bad ways. And obviously people of indigenous descent oftentimes are in the receiving end of poor economic relations through colonial mechanisms. And so it's tough to see these pieces and then say, to what extent am I working with them and in them in this system of like both trying to help, but at the same time, then am I also just kind of perpetuating some levels of colonialism in that arena too? And it is a tough thing to wrestle with. And it was interesting. And one of the things that made me laugh when we had talked before is that when it comes to space exploration, this is something that most people grow up with, like, oh, I love space. It's awesome. We all want to go to space. I love Star Wars. People love Star Trek. We have our visions of space. Something that you said to me was that it's weird to have that change because it sounds like you're saying to somebody, I don't like Jesus. For a certain crowd, that's a very dangerous thing to say.

Savannah: 

It feels very, very taboo. It feels so taboo to be a person whose book has the subtitle arguments against space exploration. And, and you really do feel like, okay, I'm going to, I'm about to alienate like half of my LinkedIn. But then I think you have to sit with yourself and question like, to what extent does that matter? And you know, you you end up at war with these like very human tendencies and desires to, to want to belong to a very starstruck, literally, unintended society that is very glamorous, and very technocratic, and very cool and flashy. And you want to cling to it and those ideas in the future, when in reality, the research, your own research is showing that it's not sustainable or healthy or equitable, and that it's harmful in a lot of different ways. At some point, you have to just kind of let it go and make what is like a healthy relationship choice to focus your attention elsewhere and let go of that kind of stardom. Again, pun intended.

Adam: 

I will also note that you did say alienate your LinkedIn network, which is also… But I think it's a powerful point to think through because it's like, what do we do when the rose-colored glasses come off and we recognize that there's not… not such great things happening. And again, we're talking a little bit broadly and we're not talking about that people are evil, but again, you're right. Obviously the creation of Space Force as a US military operation, the large commercial moves and where money goes, taxpayer money to creating Spaceport America and in different places like this. And so, because one of the pieces, pieces, like set pieces, but it's not a movie. But one of the areas that you visit in the book is Truth and Consequences in New Mexico and around where Spaceport America is. It's a really interesting space because in that point in the book, this is one of the points that sat with me that you start to see the disillusionment come in because you're asking, well, who's benefiting? We're in this small town and most people don't even live there, right? And so this is an interesting question of like, what does space exploration do? But then this other question you ask with that is for whom and who gets left behind? And this is, I think, a really powerful and important question for us as anthropologists to ask, but then also both about space exploration, but us to think about this as we engage in any kind of project, right? Is when we're talking about progress or improvement or helping or doing something or exploration, who might get left behind in that process? So I'd love to hear your thoughts about this, either in truth and consequences, but about this idea of when you came to realize and ask this question of like, yeah, we might be going to space, but who gets left behind? And what what is that benefit there?

Savannah: 

Yeah, I mean, it's not just true, there are consequences to like, we look at like the ESA spaceport in French Guiana, there have been ongoing protests outside that spaceport for years, because there are railroads to the spaceport, but the neighboring cities don't have potable water. And these locations on coasts and like that, like the around the equator of the earth and typically are in developing nations and are good spots to choose to create space for but they're also places where you have these extreme wealth disparities. It paints a very stark picture. I think, you know, I started asking those questions about who gets a say in the conversation and who doesn't. You know, I think to answer this, we can backtrack to what you were saying about, you know, people in the space industry aren't bad and they're not. They're really, I've worked with so many great people in the space industry, and it's really just the overarching goals that are being worked towards. But what's interesting is when you're working in the space industry, you start to realize that the networks of these people are quite small. And at one point when I was doing research on congressional hearings related to space, something which I attended a lot, I attended a lot of congressional hearings on space when I was in Washington, D.C., I at one point sat down and aggravated a bunch of data on who was sitting as witness, as expert witness at a congressional hearing. And I realized that a lot of the same names kept popping up over and over and over again. that the people in the crowd at the congressional hearings, even though anyone can attend a congressional hearing, were the same individuals. And I started just thinking how small the circle of voices that were being heard was and who was being considered an expert on this topic. And not just that, I mean, that's a small way of considering this idea, but just the idea of sending humans to outer space to colonize other worlds, or whatever reason, maybe for protection against potential catastrophe, that's a global concern. And yet, you know, how are we including people from the Bahamas in the conversation? How are we including people from Sweden in the conversation? How are we including people from you know, like, it's not a global conversation. It is a conversation limited to those with the capital to create the companies to organize the infrastructure to get there in the first place. And that's problematic. And though the space industry is working hard actively to become more diverse, we run into this issue of how do you make a choice for the entire population of the world about the future about what's right for them. Who gets to live on this colony? Who gets a say in whether we should go or not and how it's affecting people? We see a lot of echoes of these kind of colonial goals and promises and how Indigenous people have been treated throughout history as well, where they're not getting a say in these processes, but their land's being used. So I think the whole time I was just thinking Who's getting a say? When are we going? Who's going? And I started thinking about that more and more and more. And it seemed like anytime I asked those questions, I would get shut down by a lot of people. Not everyone. There's so many good people in the space industry who are really concerned about ethics, but a lot of people, especially in the early years when I was at Space for America.

Adam: 

Yeah. And I wonder if, that's an interesting point because it's like, I've seen, you see echoes of this also in conversations with a lot of, you know, tech luminaries and tech organizations, especially around AI, right? And the, oh, AI is going to save the world. and or destroy it and or both, but we have to keep making it. And it's the most important thing that we've ever done. And if you question it, then what are you doing? You know, it's interesting, like this kind of techno utopianism, right? That like, we're building the better thing and we have to go do it. And that is one of these interesting rhetorics in terms of pushback that you got that really caught my attention too, is that the way that people would talk about and experts would talk about the need to go to space is often these kind of disaster averting reasons, like we're going to destroy the planet, so we have to have a plan B. Yeah. And that's this really interesting fatalist teleological, almost like the ending is already set logic that I found disturbing, I think, you know, but interesting, like, so I'm curious how that process because it's, I don't know if that's built into colonialism itself. But I mean, that was something that was interesting that just in terms of the how are people articulating why we need to go explore space? And what does that mean for the imperatives they think they have? Or does this shape why they are not asking questions about who gets to go?

Savannah: 

Well, there are a million different motivations for why we should go to space expressed by these companies. Some of the large ones are like you see it said, well, we need a plan B. This is a big one. And between in the plan B camp, there's almost like a couple other camps beneath it where some people think, OK, Earth is already a lost cause. So we couldn't repair it if we wanted to, which you think to yourself, OK, if you believe that, that's not as bad than like camp two, which things Well, Earth is not worth repairing. And then camp three is more like some sort of major event might happen, like a comet strike or something that will destroy Earth. And we don't want our entire species to be wiped out. So why not create like a like an investment colony on another planet? And so we're, you know, and that's more like a protective measure. So our entire species doesn't get wiped out. you're just setting yourself up for a really hard life on another planet because you have no phone home if Earth gets destroyed, right? But then, you know, there are other motivations. For a long time, asteroid mining and material resource gathering was a huge motivation for going to space after the commercial space launch competitiveness after was passed. And that's died down a little bit. A lot of the companies that were pushing hard for that have rebranded or gone bankrupt because they've realized that it would be very difficult to do at this point in time. And there's other motivations are like exploration, for the sake of exploration, for science, for continued technological development. And, you know, I don't think those things are bad at heart. I just don't know if they need to be done by human beings. And that's, you know, ground control, my book kind of comes to that conclusion. In the concluding chapters, you know, we don't sound like we're never going to go to space. I don't want to argue that I just think right now, human space exploration shouldn't be our priority. We what should be the planet's priority is stabilizing everything else. Big job, but we got to do it. You know, achieving post-scarcity goals, working on dealing with climate change and sustainability issues. working on overpopulation and infrastructural issues. And just focus on that, focus on being a better world before going out to colonize other worlds. That's what I hope for. And I think in the meantime, there's plenty of unmanned space exploration tasks we can do. So.

Adam: 

Yeah, no, I think you're right on there, too, in that we sort of have a narrative obsession of the literal man on the moon, right? That we want to have the people in the space. And when you're right, that robots could actually do a lot of this work in a likely more effective way and not need to come up for oxygen in the same way that we would. But then also the bigger point I think you're making is also right on that there can be a distraction from the actual work that we need to do here where the humans are currently, in terms of helping kind of fix some of the issues that we have brought up here. And so I think this is interesting because maybe I'm biased as an anthropologist, but I liked seeing this transition in your story as you kind of went from the starry-eyed kid into the starry-eyed early researcher into the now I've changed my glasses take the rose colored ones off and now it's like, okay, let's actually think about what's happening here. But also then what is this distracting us from? What could this help us think about what we could be putting our resources towards? And so one of the things that was interesting too, that you also noted towards the end, is that you were concerned that if you started talking about decolonizing space to the industry, you would fall on deaf ears or alienate your network, right? But you actually found some sympathetic ears, right? I did, yeah. And so, yeah, tell me about that. That's a really interesting and positive find, I think.

Savannah: 

Yeah, you know, I did. I did find many people who are sympathetic to it. And more than I thought, though, I knew I knew plenty of people. were kind of aware of the ethical issues to some extent of space. And it's hard not to be aware of things like the Mauna Kea protests, when you're literally a scientist working on those telescopes, you know, how could you not have that in the back of your mind, and at least be like, acknowledge like, okay, these politics are going on. So sometimes as an anthropologist, I would go to a space happy hour, And there were a lot of and, you know, people would talk to me about this stuff. But you wonder, okay, like how, just how motivated for change are they? Are they just aware that there are ethical issues? Are they someone who wants to see change? Are they like a rabid believer of human spaceflight and that we can't live without it? Or can they imagine a future without it where we're prioritizing different forms? I think what does affect a lot of space industry, especially government space industry, motivations is the government's motivations at the time. And the switch from, well, we're now going to the moon, well, we're now going to Mars, you know, that's top down. It's to some extent, it's out of NASA's control where, where they start to have to shift money based on what the world leaders are saying at the time. But so I did, as I went into the writing process for a book on this, a book that I knew had the potential of reaching a wider audience and was not just a magazine article or a blog post like I'd written before, I decided to go up to DC for the birthday party. of someone who's really big in the space industry. I knew a lot of people would be there, 60 or 70 people, and sure enough, there were. And I just, I had it in my mind. I was also in town for an interview for the book. I was working and working, as we anthropologists do, right? I had to go by NASA and interview someone. And I I just wanted to kind of push the idea a little bit in conversation at this happy hour and just see like, okay, what do you think? Like I'm writing a book that makes an argument for why we shouldn't go to space as a social scientist. What are your feelings on this? And I expected a lot of people to be really mad at me or be like, we should not have this girl in the room, you know, because when I look back, like there were so many places I was, you know, that I just was listening. I just had access to all this information, you know, without signing NDAs and stuff like that. And you just do. And even if you just sit in Congress as a bystander, you have access to so much information. You can just listen to to what's going on in the world and opinions and beliefs and values about our country. It's crazy. Small tangent there.

Adam:

We have access to you. Exactly.

Savannah: 

No, it's crazy. I mean, I was in the hearing for the creation, like with the creation of the Space Force and spicy, spicy hearing. But so when I did start to put those feelers out in that birthday party, it was a little overwhelming how many people were like, no, I think this is a book that should be written. I think This has a lot of value, you know, I think the more books on space ethics, the better. And sure, I literally had someone, when I was explaining the book to him, walk away from me mid-conversation and be like, oh wow, okay, and beeline it away. And I was like, eh, I did see that coming, that's okay. Not everyone's gonna love it and that's totally fine. But I was shocked at the kind of support I received. And whether that support is something that's gonna be public, I don't know. But I really appreciated that behind those metaphorical closed doors, that there were people who wanted to hear more about space ethics and have those stories told. And so that was good. That was just really good to hear that. And I think this is an important story point in what it's like to come of age as an anthropologist, is that you have to be a little brave, because at some point, In the last years of my story, my space story, I had to make a decision on whether or not I wanted to do anything about what I was seeing. Did I maintain a neutral stance? When I pick up the journal articles written by other space anthropologists, They do talk about imperialism and colonialism and technocracy and how these things affect the world, but they are still rather neutral. Did I want to actively put my opinion into this? Did I want to, in a way, act as an activist? And, you know, did anthropology and activism go together? That was a question for me. Was it right to be an activist as an anthropologist? I had seen anthropologists be activists before, but not in relation to the world's they had researched. How did that work? How did that fit? What did that look like? Was that okay? Was that valid? I think it is valid. I think it's totally valid and I think it is a righteous thing to do as long as you are doing what every scientist and researcher should do which is bounding your own personal arguments and on research you're just applying it to the current reality. And so when I make arguments, I'm making sure, you know, I'm not, I'm not twisting my research or anything like that. You're saying, hey, this is what I saw. And this is how I feel about it. And that's okay, you know, to say that, like, like, this is my research. Here are all my citations. Here's what I did. And I was like, and it sucks. This is bad. I don't like it at all. And I think that's great. I think it's good. I want more of it.

Adam: 

Well, no, I think it's because it speaks to the importance of the reality or acknowledging the reality and living out the reality that information is not neutral, right? And that data is not something that just exists, but it's created in a certain way and it helps us understand certain things and then it brings other things to light. And so it's important, I think. In that regard, I mean, in that same space, yeah, I mean, I'm with you in this notion that an anthropologist can and should be activist if they find that that's what their work points towards, you know? It's like the, you know, minimally the, and I found myself like increasingly uncomfortable with the idea of just doing straight up academic research. when I was going into the field too. Because part of it, without sounding too glib, was just like, well, what's the point of just doing research if it's not going to do anything? Especially as an anthropologist, we're living with people. We're getting to know their worlds. What's the point of just collecting stories? What's interesting about that too, and I appreciate about your work, is that it can be quite challenging to do something, to understand what it means to be applied in your field. Obviously, that's different in different people's arenas. But in this regard too, I mean, this idea of, even something you note that I thought was helpful too, is like articulating what activism looks like for you in your field work, in your work, right? And what does that mean? That's important to be able to do that. So I mean, tell me a little bit about that process too, because it's something that I think that's really helpful for folks as they're, if they're wrestling with this, if they're doing field work, or if someone's just trying to say, what's the value of anthropological research? I think this is one of the pieces where we can learn to articulate what is the impact that we think our work can have. What can it look like when we're applying an impact lens to it? How did that work for you?

Savannah: 

I mean, I think activism, like you said, does look like different things for different anthropologists. It's not always holding a sign up and walking down the street. You know, sometimes it's working to write policy, which I've seen anthropologists do many times. Sometimes it is applying decolonial theory to something you've seen that's colonial. Sometimes it is helping by consulting for these businesses that you maybe researched and thought, okay, I've seen some harmful things here. Can I help make change from within? Because that's possible, right? NASA has anthropologists working for them. Not a lot, but they do. And I've gotten hired as a consultant to kind of work in an ethical nature as like an ethicist, essentially. And I love that. And that's also, you know, one thing my book advocates for is like, if you want to figure out a small way to make change, add more social scientists, and those with backgrounds in ethical research into your businesses to add that voice to add that aspect of the conversation. And so activism does look different for everyone. And I'm with you in the sense that I wanted my work to do something. I didn't want to be an armchair anthropologist, not just in the sense of historically anthropologists who didn't do fieldwork, but also in the sense of I was doing fieldwork and I wanted to do something with it. I wanted to come home and I wanted it to mean something. I wanted it to matter. And I didn't know that at the time. I didn't even know what applied anthropology was or how to apply anthropology myself for the longest time. I think it's a confusing thing for a lot of people, how to apply qualitative research and get pragmatic, quantitative results to make political changes with it, to make economic changes with this research. And bit by bit, I learned what that meant over time by both exposing myself constantly to other research that had done it. And also, by, I think, just figuring out where the gaps were, and in the space industry, and saying, Okay, you know, you know what, I could fill this gap, like I could, I could, my research could apply here and make a change here. And that was something that I just realized more and more and more over time. And I think this is important as well, when we're considering a very like speculative field of study too. So space, human space exploration hasn't happened yet. And I have had my work critiqued by some professors who have been like, there's no use in studying the speculative. And I think, yeah, well, I mean, I think there is definitely use in studying the speculative in a lot of different ways. One, I find it inspirational and helping us think about the present. So even if we're thinking about sci-fi, like just straight up studying sci-fi, I'm like, I, this, this makes me, gives me so much fodder to think about current politics, for example, or something like that. But I did know that it could, uh, speculative research can be, can be a little weaker. And I wanted to think, okay, how can I give this strength? You know, how can I take the speculative nature of my field of study, human space exploration, something that has not happened yet. One, how do you even study that? That was something I had to learn and ground it. How do I apply it? How do I bring it down from this cloud in the air and, and make it real? And I did that by figuring out how it was impacting the present, how these really far-fetched and futuristic dreams were impacting current economic goals, political interests, budgets, social movements, technological development, scientific development. And they were. They were impacting all of those things. And that's how you ground it.

Adam: 

But I think also, I mean, and something else that's really important about that too, that I found valuable that you also write about is that, you know, it's speculative on one level because we haven't done it yet. But I mean, as you were just saying right there too, that there's a ton of economic and political and social and cultural force behind that dream, right? Like to the tune of bajillions of dollars that have been spent in like, you know, a couple white old man billionaires have gone to space because it's their little boy's dream, you know? And it's like- Yes. But then on top of that too, even taking a decolonial lens also points us towards, I'm going to put my theory hat on with you for a second, post-colonial technoscience, super interesting field of study, is pointing us towards the colonial-like past that we have done as we're exploring the world. We're heading out into the Terra Nellis and the continents that we've never seen, and the terrible legacies of colonialism that have come from that. So there's interesting ideas that it is speculative, the dream, but then there's a future being built like politically, economically, socially, and then also a past that's being resurrected or it never died. But it's been dragged forward in this other way, which I think is really interesting. So I mean, I don't know if that professor is listening right now, but if they are, this is exactly why speculative research is helpful because it does show us actually how we are literally bringing the past and the future together and the present. But I think there's this interesting point that there's a collapsing also of time in that regard, that we are kind of pulling from this militaristic colonial past into the present and also the future of what we can do, where we're going to spend our dollars next. And that's really interesting. I think it's what makes the human space exploration such an interesting and fruitful field. And then also as a fellow sci-fi nerd with you, it's also just fun to think about. But I think also that other side of it, I guess I want to pin us into that idea for a second too, in terms of the helpfulness you found both in being a geek, but also just like a lover of sci-fi, like how has that played and helped you both? I mean, I can see a little bit of how that helped shape thinking about space in the first place, but how did that help shape your research? Because I mean, again, sci-fi also similar to speculative research, isn't just a speculation, but actually it has important reflections about our world today.

Savannah: 

Yeah, I mean, I find science fiction and speculative fiction super inspirational. And something that resonates with me in a very real way, like a lot of times after I watch a new piece of science fiction or speculative fiction, I think like, wow, like, what if I thought about this in relation to research on X, Y, and Z? What if we took this concept brought to life in this show and applied it? I think science fiction acts as analog for events that could happen in our future. It's a way of like, of expressing a potential outcome and in a media form. And I think it's also a way of expressing social tensions and political tensions of different time periods. So we're seeing, for example, in the, you know, current rise of what Clifi, they call it climate change fiction. Interesting. Yeah. Clifi, you know, it, it wouldn't exist without the trauma that climate change has caused and its history. And that, well, maybe it would have existed sci fi authors come up with everything. But you know, there's this whole wide world of literature that's erupted that is hard science and nature inspired by these sort of potential dystopian events that, you know, acts as a way I think of expressing sort of these social and political tensions and stressors and then fleshing them out for us. But I'll say that. So, yeah, I mean, science fiction was one of those early things that inspired me to want to research space in the first place and to want to research I wanted to research sci fi at one point, I just didn't think it was possible. I didn't know it was possible. I didn't know if it was possible to research outer space in the very beginning of my work. And then throughout my work, I realized, you know, how important science fiction and speculative fiction was not just to me, but to my participants as well, you know, science fiction is brought up in law, it's brought up in space hearings, it's brought up in casual conversation, it deeply impacts the way people think about the future of our civilization. And so I think authors have a lot of power in their hands and how they imagine new worlds. Because all it takes is one author, one very important, popular author, the next George R. R. Martin with the next HBO series, it's going to be really important to to kind of conjure up an alternative future that doesn't happen in space, where human space exploration is not the priority, to kind of seed this idea in people's minds and just to start to realize that science, science fiction, speculative fiction has huge influence over society.

Adam: 

Yeah, it's such an important area in that, I think it's interesting when like it's, you know, a cautionary tale and people tend to dismiss it because it's fiction, it's not true. You know, it doesn't have, it's not real, right. But of course, like the best fiction is, you know, some of the most poignant reflections we have of reality or what possibilities could become. And even part of that too, another piece that you talked about, when one thinks about what does it mean to decolonize space exploration, but even the importance of having more social scientists working in the space industry. When they had the idea of what does it mean to decolonize the space industry? And part of it too is having more social scientists come work in industry. And of course, that also just means a wider diverse set of types of people. And I mean, like most STEM fields in science industries, they're overwhelmingly male, overwhelmingly white. And one of the interesting things that I think some of the most compelling sci-fi that we see is obviously written from people of color, from queer authors, from folks that are kind of outside of the, quote unquote, norm core mainstream. And, and, and like even thinking about this in terms of like things that have impacted us right you know I'm thinking of like the clarity and crow tabletop RPG game that is was designed and created entirely by a Native American indigenous team. Never Alone, the video game series that was also produced based on Native American mythology. And there's this interesting idea in terms of like, are we using mediums effectively to tell other kinds of stories and also allowing other authors in too? So I think there's this piece also is, I mean, I'm just imagining what it would be like to have more indigenous leaders in the space industry. You know, what that might look like. How do we talk about what space means?

Savannah: 

Part of this is seeing values in those voices just for being themselves, as well, and not for necessarily their CV. So because I think that's something that a lot of anthropologists face when like examining whether or not it's possible to get hired into these industries because we don't have skills that are considered valuable to the industries a lot. So it's hard to hire us in unless we're getting hired into the business development section or the marketing section, but to just hire in a social scientist to be a social scientist. Now that's, that's crazy. That's unheard of, you know, to hire in an ethicist, it's starting to happen. We're seeing the rise of diversity specialists and things like that. And but to just have, if you're going to push for a mission that is supposedly global, finding a way to include a global set of voices in a non-discriminatory way, no matter their background. It's almost like you need a jury duty pool.

Adam: 

Actually, that's not a bad mechanism, though, actually.

Savannah: 

Yeah, you kind of just need to put a bunch of names in a hat, no matter the age, occupation, background, et cetera, from each nation or something like that, and poll them, and just get people to sit down and give their advice. on the situation, and do that over and over and over again, a couple times, and see what people say. And I think that's why, you know, a lot of the earliest chapters of my book focus on the idea of privilege, not just truth or consequences in New Mexico, where you're seeing this, again, another vast wealth disparity between the population of truth and consequences, and the individuals of the spaceport and Virgin Galactic. But I'm also talking about like, what my childhood was like, where You know, I grew up in South Florida, which was both very, very, very, very wealthy. Like I lived close to Mar-a-Lago, but then you drive West. And if you just drive West for like an hour, you're in some of the lowest income counties in Florida. And a lot of my friends lived in those counties. And hearing from them what they thought of space exploration and them just saying, well, can I just get healthcare first? You know, like, you know, that's not their priority. Like they're just not thinking about it. And there's so many people who I think probably feel the same way that it's just a very, like, it's a, it's a bougie hobby. Like, you know, the actual human space exploration part, especially space tourism.

Adam: 

Yeah. I mean, especially if what your ticket is $200,000 to start for your ride, you know, But yeah, but I think that's an important piece. And this is something else that you bring up that I think is worth thinking about too is, and you mentioned this before, of who's sitting in as expert witnesses during congressional hearings on space exploration, right? And it's like this small pool of business leaders, which they could be experts, but it also raises the question of how do we speak for the public interest? If the quote unquote public is not even really there, what is that supposed to look like?

Savannah: 

Yeah, I'm pulling up the statistics I have now about the witnesses and their just their job roles. I mean, when you saw I had for the book, I examined 20 congressional hearings over like a four year period. which is kind of a lot of hearings. It didn't happen that often. And that was like all the space hearings in those four years or something like that. And 36 out of 65 of them worked for the government, which meant NASA, the military, or the State Department. Nine of them worked specifically for NASA. Only 10 out of 65 worked for private organizations, and 14 worked in academia. Only 27% were women. There was no way for me to get racial statistics. I would have been really interested to see that. All of the individuals on the list were in elite job positions. So in other words, founders, directors, CEOs, administrators, generals, and not a single witness could be considered a lay expert or representative of public opinion. The only early career job title I saw was research fellow, which let's be clear, you need to be like a postgraduate to achieve. So you kind of need a lot of education first. I don't know if we should consider it early career to be to be honest. Yeah, really, you're getting paid that way. But and that made me think is okay, so sure, expert witness panels are supposed to be experts, they're supposed to be experts on space. And maybe that's who the experts on space are, at the moment is those people. But what I wished we could see is like one fourth of every panel, being a layperson being a representative of the public, someone or a representative of indigenous groups or representative, whoever's land was being launched from if we're talking about a specific space for or something like that, because some some hearings focus on space sports and I wanted it makes sense when you have expert wizards panels when you're like talking about the spread of a virus and you need to hear from experts on that virus that you have all scientists but with these hearings on space some of the titles were like just reflecting on 40 years in space. That was the title of the hearing, something along those lines, where that's all they're doing is they're talking about the 40 years in space, and the next 40 years, and what it's going to look like, and what it should look like, and what we should do, and what we should prioritize. That's when you need to hear voices from the public. That's when you need to hear other individuals included in this audience who are not just the same people you've been pulling over and over again. And, you know, this whole chapter of the book really digs into who we consider an expert, why we consider them an expert. Why do we consider astronauts experts on space? Why do we pick them to go on expert witness panels over and over again? I kind of pick on that question a little bit because in my mind, what if the expert astronaut on the panel was the pilot? Are they the best person to talk about whether there should be another space mission? What makes them, is it just because they've gone to space? If I go to Tijuana, am I the best person to tell you about plans for Tijuana? Think about it like that. If I've flown a plane to Tijuana, should I tell you about Tijuana?

Adam: 

The development of Tijuana in the future, yeah. Yeah.

Savannah: 

Am I an expert on it? To some degree, they have experienced in a way that so little people on Earth have. they have that experiential knowledge that is just. unrivaled. But we've also heard from them a lot. Different astronauts have been on a lot of expert witness panels. So I think I just dig into that a tiny bit. But also I dig into the idea of expertise, which has been talked about by anthropologists and STS scholars quite a bit. Who is more of an expert? A video game designer or a video game player that's logged 4,000 hours? What is Bill Nye an expert on? Is he an expert scientist or is he an expert science communicator? Things like that pushing forward, you know, like what makes someone able to give advice to the government?

Adam: 

Yeah, and and like qualified. Yeah, makes you qualified and who like, do we question the literal diversity of who we're talking to, right? If we are always asking Neil deGrasse Tyson to talk about astrophysics, that's not a great diversity of opinions, right? I mean, and we don't just ask him, but just like, you know, Bill Nye is a great example too as a well-known science communicator. It's like if we're always asking them one question or two about science and not really getting a more public perspective, then it's celebrity fun. But yeah, it's kind of like if that's the only person that ever talks to the government about astrophysics for some reason, then that should raise some questions in terms of like, well, okay, how much can we actually get from one person? How much should we expect from one person?

Savannah:

I have no idea if Bill Nye has been on a hearing, but he makes a good example where I think he outwardly comes across as a scientist. But in reality, I think he is a science communicator, which is not a bad thing.

Adam: 

Right. No, totally. No, we need this. I mean, that's what this podcast is also trying to do on some level, you know, because it's like, I mean, I guess his job title is the Science Guy. So I guess it doesn't say Bill Nye the Scientist, does it? That's a good point. Actually, I don't know if he's ever claimed that. That's a good question, actually. We'll see out in the real world. I'm curious now, too. Bill Nye the Scientist. It doesn't have the same ring to it. No. I guess since you mentioned it before, I think we have to dive into this just because otherwise I'll get fired. You were sitting in on the hearings about the creation of Space Force. Yeah. And it was spicy. I want to know about, tell me about the spice.

Savannah: 

I mean, I had to attend a lot of congressional hearings during my time working for the Commercial Spaceflight Federation. What that organization does is like basically consultancy work for 80 plus commercial space companies, including the big rock star ones on business development, government relations, we wrote policy. And so I'd go to these hearings, and I just happened to be there for the hearing that was about the creation of the Space Force and whether the Space Force should be created. And it was really, I mean, it's really interesting, because so openly, senators were so openly just talking about whether or not space should be a war fighting to me. And some senators were like, no, that's bad. Nope. And others were like, we have to protect ourselves. And then people would be like, well, against who, you know? And it was just a fascinating conversation to watch happen live because people got angry at each other. People were really just really challenging what each other were saying about what the environment of space was meant to be used for. what was the Space Force going to be used for? What was an ethical use of space? And to just sit there and to like, observe this conversation. And if you as an audience member listening to this podcast, like want to look up the transcripts for the hearing, you can like their, their public record on the.gov website, you know, just hearing the way our government leaders talking about still the remaining like militarization of space, and those who wanted that and those who didn't and those and also just a lot of like anti-Chinese and anti-Russian sentiment going back and forth throughout the conversation. A lot of it was about satellite protection and privacy, but some was like, okay, like, like, how do we extend what is the warfighting domain into space? And what a, what a heavy conversation, what a, what a heavy question to be asked and to be, to be talked about and discussed. It was, it was really cool. It was bad. It was it was well, it was it was interesting. I'm not like not everyone was in agreement at all.

Adam: 

That's a good answer. It was interesting. It was cool. It was bad. But it was all these things.

Savannah: 

And it was totally I don't even know how to like, I reflect on it. I'm just like, Oh, in the in the moment, you're just watching like, a lot of high level government figures fight with each other, which is kind of wild. And you're like, am I in British Parliament right now? Yeah. And then, yeah. And then, then you tune into what they're saying. And it just feels like you're in the 1950s. You know, it feels like this is like Cold War.

Adam: 

Yeah, that's, I definitely got that kind of vibe. If it's just like, it's a lot of this anti-China, anti-Russia sentiment and concern over defense. I think it's really interesting. One other question I had for you. I'm just curious, from a logistical, I guess, standpoint, I don't know. So, Ground Control, your book that will be coming out shortly in the new year. I'm curious, this was adapted from your dissertation. How much of your dissertation exists in this book?

Savannah: 

So, actually, it's not. Okay, so you wrote two things. Yeah, no, I'm gonna write a lot of things. Ground Control is adapted from my first master's degree dissertation, which I did at UCL. Plus, after that master's degree, I went on and I started writing a lot of these magazine articles, blog posts about space ethics. And over time, that accumulated. And this is like a recipe for how to do this if you're listening in. So I wrote my little baby dissertation for my master's, and then I went forward and I did a bunch of small articles. And at some point, I thought to myself, what would happen if I put this all together? And I was just thinking about it. I was not even that seriously thinking about it. And I reached out to an agent, a literary agent, I knew via his own YouTube channel, who works for a big agency, and about advice on the topic. And instead of giving me advice, basically, the agency was like, we want to represent you. And that launched me writing a book on this, which at the time, this at this point, this was a couple years after I had written the master's in those articles. I was starting my PhD when this happened. And I didn't want to write my PhD dissertation on space. In my mind, I was already creating a body of work on space and anthropology and space ethics and I was getting a little bit, you know, I did a lot of it's very hard work to write because it's very heavy in nature and very controversial. I was taking a step back from that work and I was looking forward to writing a dissertation that would be on something tangentially related but not completely. took a semester off my PhD, I wrote Ground Control through my agency, got a publisher, etc. And my dissertation is now actually, I have convinced my committee to let me write a second book. So yeah, it's on like the political impact of ideas of apocalypse, and dystopia and utopia. And so we see in Ground Control, a lot of themes on and like the political repercussions of imagining a utopia, one want to kind of stick with that idea, but examine it from a dystopian perspective, going way back to like Old Norse history. And so my dissertation is going to be on dystopias and utopias. So it's kind of pulling from both books a little bit.

Adam: 

Yeah. That's a smart way. So you get to write two actual books and then you get to pool them together for a dissertation. That's the lesson students and people finishing your PhDs. Write three things. It's not a normal trajectory at all.

Savannah:

 I think what it is, is I'm like a writer through and through. It's so hard. When I'm not writing something, I just feel like ill. Like I need to be writing something all the time. And I'm a writer first and foremost. And then academia is a place for me, that pushes me to constantly be conjuring up new ideas and writing new things. And, and that's why I love it. And being a social scientist, I get to write about such a vast variety of topics from at times a very, you know, artistic kind of lens. And I love that. I love that about anthropology, the social sciences.

Adam: 

No, me too, me too. There's something just, I think, always enchanting about everything is on the table, right? And so it's like, you have a smorgasbord to pick from. I'm curious, just a final thought here, question, your writing process, if you, I know a lot of anthropologists too love writing, you know, I don't know if they call themselves writers first, but like, tell us a little bit about your process there. I mean, are you the kind of person that gets up at 5 a.m. and like starts writing and does 750 words and then you can like take a two hour walk or like, how do you normally,

Savannah: 

Oh, this is a good question because I also love hearing about other people's writing processes too. Okay, it's different if I have the option to be a full-time writer versus not, like during summer times, right? During summer times, right now I'm just bartending and I'm working on the proposal for my non-fiction book and writing a fiction book. So I'm able to like write almost full-time. And what that looks like for me is I do give myself a minimum word count I try to hit most days or like a goal. I have an overarching goal for the summer and that goal is 50,000 words which is the average length of a fiction book. I have a word count minimum per day which is like 500 but I know some days, weekends for example, I'm not going to hit that goal. But what happens most days if I'm feeling really inspired I'll sit down and like at a coffee shop and write like 2,000 words. So I'll kind of catch up. And I will say I do a lot of little things to help me push through on days I'm not motivated. I love to work outside my house at coffee shops. I go to the brewery I work at before it opens and I'll drink their coffee and like sit outside. And so I change my space. I change my environment because that helps me focus it almost like if i'm getting tired of writing at one coffee shop and i want to push through a little bit for the day i will change locations go to a different coffee shop and it will like kickstart my brain i also love writing with people and sometimes every like semester or so i'll plan what's called an all-day write-in This is something I picked up from the organization NaNoWriMo, which is National Novel Writing Month. It's a great organization that is just like for writers, by writers. And it promotes people to yearly, you're supposed to write a full novel in one month. Some people do it, some people it just pushes you to write a little bit more each day. But I'll do an all day write in NaNoWriMo style, which is where you like plan like a 10 hour, 24 hour period. And it's kind of like a giant slumber party. and you plan activities throughout the day, and you just push yourself to write a lot harder in that day. And that's great for people who don't have the time. Maybe you have kids, maybe you do have a full-time job, and you're never going to be able to set these 500-word-a-day goals or even write every week. Having the opportunity to go to an all-day write-in and have a kind of a retreat moment. It's, it's fun. It's a little exhausting, but also I I've written crazy amounts of those days and you take breaks, you do yoga, like, like on a two hour break, you know, and then you eat food one break and, and, and it's good. It's, it's really good. I love stuff like that.

Adam: 

But yeah, no, it's good to give yourself like the, those, those special moments. And I, I, yeah, I love the idea of that too. So maybe we need to have a, a TAL, podcast to write in.

Savannah: 

I guess the only other thing I'll say is that I treat it like a business now, especially now that I have an agent, now that Ground Control is out, now that I see that I have the opportunity to write more books through trade publishers, I do treat writing as a business. And I think if you want to be a writer in any capacity, you need to take it very seriously. I think you need to find the time, set aside the time. You have to read constantly in your genre. Like if you're writing fiction, you need to read fiction. You need to be learning the market. And there's a lot of stuff you don't think you're ever going to need to know. But like the stuff I feel like I've taken classes in the publishing industry now because there's so much back end knowledge you have to acquire. You have to learn what's hot in the market, what's not hot in the market, how they want things phrased in your proposal, how to write a proposal. There's just a lot of little things. The word dystopia is out, so I'm trying to leave it out of my proposal and call everything apocalyptic. There's just so little tiny things like that in the market to be very, very aware of and just saying, okay, if you want to do this and you want to be a writer, you need to treat it like any other full-time job. I think it helps I've had a good support system for that. My parents have always taken my writing very seriously, so it's good.

Adam:

 Yeah, that's a huge plus. And totally necessary. You're right, like community, it's your words, but it's like also, yeah, the community of support is part of that as well.

Savannah: 

It's not, I mean, neither of these careers, right? Writing or anthropology are taken very seriously by the public often. And it's tough. It's introducing yourself as either a writer or an anthropologist is sort of like a, you're never going to make any money, are you, you know? And so you have to have a little bit of bravery in our fields, I think.

Adam: 

Totally, totally. Well, here's to that. And cheers to having bravery and to your new book. I'm excited for folks to check it out. Ground Control, again, we've been talking about it for an hour now, but it's a great read. And again, it's this important walkthrough, both your story and coming of age of an anthropologist. So if you're interested in what it's like to be a researcher, what it's like to be an anthropologist, what it's like to work in the space industry, it has all these things. Plus, how do we think about decolonializing at the same time? and falling out of love with something that we loved as children, but then coming out the other side, being okay still, this is a good thing. So, Zanetta, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast today. I'm super excited for folks to check the book and it's been great to chat with you and hear about your process and your work and everything that you're going through.

Savannah: 

Yeah, it's great meeting you too. Thank you so much for having me.

Adam: 

And that brings us to the end of today's episode of This Anthro Life. And whoa, what an informative and thought-provoking conversation we've had with our guest, Savannah Mendel. We delved into the motivations behind space exploration, the role of anthropology in the space industry, and the importance of exploring speculative fields for understanding our present reality. Now let's recap some of the insights from the conversation. We explored the various motivations for going to space, from having a plan B, to sustainability, to asteroid mining, and even scientific exploration. Now, Savannah Mendel challenged the prioritization of space exploration and urged us to focus on resolving pressing issues right here on our home planet. We discussed the need also for more social scientists and diverse voices in the space industry, as well as the importance of applying anthropological research to making real-world changes. Throughout the conversation, we highlighted the power of speculative thinking, science fiction, and writing in shaping our future and inspiring new ideas. Now it's time for you, my friends, to reflect on some of the things that we've explored today. Have you ever thought about the ethical implications of space exploration or the need for diverse voices in decision making and things like this? We'd love to hear your thoughts and get your reflections and experiences. So before we say goodbye, I just want to express a heartfelt thank you once again to Savannah Mandel for sharing her expertise and insights with us today. And her book, Ground Control, offers a fascinating exploration into space ethics, anthropology, and I highly recommend that you check it out. And speaking of recommendations, if you're interested in diving deeper, into the world of anthropology and applied research, we encourage you to check out our AnthroCurious sub-stack blog linked in the show notes below. It's filled with engaging content that explores the intersections of anthropology in various topics like AI, robots, the future of work, and of course, space exploration. So remember, I really value your support and would love to hear from you. So let me know what you thought of this episode and share your thoughts about future episode topics or guests. You can find me on social media, leave reviews on your favorite podcast platform here on YouTube, and if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to This Anthro Life for more fascinating conversations with experts from around the world. Thank you for joining me today. Keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep listening. Until next time, this is your host Adam Gamwell, signing off.