Redefining Accessibility, Inclusion, and Human Rights with Victor Pineda

Adam  0:00  

Welcome back to This Anthro Life. I'm your host, Adam Gamwell, ready to lead you on a journey through the complex terrain of human existence. Today's guide is Dr. Victor Pineda. He's a man of many titles. He's not only an esteemed professor at UC Berkeley, an ardent disability and human rights advocate, and a presidential appointee. But he's also a pioneering policymaker and entrepreneur, who's left his indelible mark on master city planning in cities like Dubai, in countries like Ecuador. But perhaps above all, he's a relentless explorer, constantly seeking answers to life's most profound questions. Something this anthropologist resonates deeply with? How does one reach their highest self amidst ever-changing environments? How can we live well, and express ourselves and simultaneously feel intrinsically connected to the world around us? Victor, through his transformational work, has been weaving answers into the fabric of institutions and systems around the globe. So sit back as we deep dive into an insightful discussion that oscillates between the intimate in the universal between rights and responsibilities, and hinges on Victor's unapologetic wrestling with the question that we all ask ourselves, who am I? And what am I doing here? So if you're just joining the podcast, hit that subscribe button, give us like, if you're on YouTube, if you find this content valuable, so stick around as we unlock the intricacies of human potential. With Victor Pineda, you've done an incredible amount of work, both in terms of research policy work, you know, inter governmental policy work at this this, you know, high level of like, how do we think about the question of accessibility and disability rights and human rights. And then at the same time, you get to engage in, in your film, unconfined, this idea of what does it mean to be a human? What does it mean to live a good life? Right? And so, like, there's this interesting dichotomy that we could think through in your journey. These like big systems level questions of accessibility and rights. And then these very fundamental human questions. Who am I? What am I doing here? What does it mean to live? Well?

Victor Pineda  1:59  

Well, I think there's three things. Yes, shear, which has the ability to choose, not what happens to how to react, I think the ability for us to understand the human condition, as that was the tapestry of different emotions and different it's like deepening the narratives. But yet to choose a path, what were base freedom, meaning, that is the greatest gift. Alright, see, when you talk about what it means to have a underlying fabric that you die, oh, God, humanity, it could be the pursuit of freedom, the pursuit, as the logic says, there's a tension between aligning through your reader to your society, your family and your own ability to express yourself every individual as is kind of a an expression of consciousness, your boss, your own unique ravine. And yet you're connected to every stage, you're part of a wider ecosystem. So it's a hard question to sort of think about what is a life worth living, because it's really a very personal journey. And I would encourage our audience to so on amazon prime to be a Roku had watched the film actually fight because they're gonna help us all find the answers for ourselves.

Adam  4:24  

And I would agree we'll we'll definitely link the film in the show notes so you can check it out. I think that something that's really powerful about that point, too, is that you know, there's there's something about when we tell somebody's individual story, like we, you know, in this case, we're going through your journey in this film, asking these these like very personal questions, but also there are universal they're universal questions that we all ask right as, as humans, especially when we find ourselves in the dark night of the soul sometimes or kind of looking up at the night sky even and just saying, like, you know, what, what am I doing here? In the tension have that idea of that? We all have that individual question. And we have an individual answer to it. Right. But then I liked how you said to like thinking about this notion of an underlying fabric personally, that we all share, too. And it's interesting, it's paradoxical, almost right, that the thing that we share is, I think you're right, where it's the pursuit of freedom, right? It's the idea to be able to express ourselves as individuals and to be in the world in ways that make us feel fulfilled. Had to belong. Yes. Yes. That

Victor Pineda  5:24  

daily tag church lives. much. Too much freedom. Yes. Defines freedom as

Adam  5:32  

Yes, yes. Yeah, exactly. Right. The tension of freedom and belonging there is exactly right to because it's this this kind of push and pull. Right. And I think it's echoed in the idea that we we want to ask, we asked that question, as individuals of, you know, who am I? And, you know, how would, why am I living my life, the way that I live it, and, and then that, that is echoed in this idea of me as an individual, but then we are all kind of also universally asking that question of ourselves. And, you know, thinking about this in, in kind of your work in your own journey to, like, I thought it was really interesting to the, you know, I won't give away too much of the film, you know, how the questions that you ask you kind of you go to a talk in Chicago, and you find yourself asking a question of, like, how, how does one reach their highest self also, right, in this, this, this question of, of being in the world? And also, you know, how can we find ways to feel powerful in the world, when we live sometimes in things that are designed either against us or kind of designed that create constraints? So they may create affordances? For some people, but then obviously, for others not in thought this was an interesting question, too, because it's akin to this question, I think of freedom, right. But then also comes to your point of, we belong to a world we live in a space, we live in a system. And so I guess just thinking about this, you know, from your perspective, too, of like, hey, navigating these these tensions in these these polls, as it were, you know, how do we think about empowerment? Also, right, this is something else that they can still be with the film is, how do we, I think, ask ourselves useful questions about how do I feel empowered? We find that sometimes it's hard to ask ourselves that question. Can we kind of be brave enough to ask really? What pops up?

Victor Pineda  7:14  

So explore a range of you asked me to join each one of the things that was exciting for us to have a conversation on? What does it mean to be human? What binds us together as humans? So look, I'm sitting here starting this podcast with you. And people that can't see me. They won't be able to see but I'ma 45 year old Hispanic now, wearing some glasses, I just started wearing glasses, at the age of 25. I wearing machine over my nose that helps you breathe and see the world electric wheelchair. And we're going to look over my shoulders, and I'm quite relaxed, a little bit of a five o'clock shadow that's on my chin because I haven't changed. But the visual description allows you to sort of imagine down somebody that has quite a small frame, I already weigh 95 pounds, I'm about 430 inches tall. So my body and my sort of physical repair appearance, the thought conformed to want to magazines, newspapers, talent agents and social media present as a, you know, archetypical math, but yet I engaged with the world. And I define my own notions of masculinity, my own notions of what is the good life for me by my own notions of how I show up and express myself my own notions and how I move around through the world. So the phenomenon, which is my life is a perception and is experienced through the lens of the observer. Crew oftentimes describes a set of conditions or assumptions that I'd suffered. Right so the words he is confined to a wheelchair, loose, it's like ideas of bondage, or chains or ropes. You know, wrapping your head around me on to my wheelchair where Reality the wheelchair is, is the abrasion device a, an extension of my freedom a vehicle makes those who do gods, the chariot that allows you to fly and to traverse the rounds, you know, exploring the edges of the horizon. So I don't view my wheelchair, I don't view my condition as a punishment for the guards. Miranda is a unique vantage point from which to ask the question. What is the good life? What does it mean to be sure machine? One binds us together? So I'm excited that you watch my sterile lectures. You know, I think that Phil is kind of like contribution to the dialogue around how to expand our notion of what it means to be Zermatt. Right? How do we look at our moral agency? The Arizona law, Kant would say or in terms of cooking God, either we think of

Victor Pineda  11:27  

personal choice of directing. And it's not only about tripsite, the existential adults. Right? But Nikki authentic choices that define us. And so my film explores that. Yeah, my, my work is the policy, right? There's scholar as a professor at UC Berkeley, my work negotiated an international human rights treaty. I served on three US administrations as a presidential appointee. So there's a variety of ways that I shop the world. Like, I think, ultimately, I'm trying to be present. And I try to let others see me and experience me in a way that is that I take, as it should be. Now, I can't control how others will respond. But I can try to at least nudge them beyond their limited conceptions, or allow them to stretch beyond the cliches or the, you know, implicit bias that we all have about the carrying value. And, you know, disabled body. But I think ultimately, it's not about you, whether we have limitations, but it's about how we respond to the world as it is, and how do we aspire to the world as it should be?

Adam  13:22  

I love that I think that's such such a refreshing and important perspective, and necessary because I agree that you're right, I mean, that we don't, we don't have any control over other people, or, you know, how the world might show up to us. But how we choose to show up in the world, how we choose to respond to the world, as it is, is a fundamentally important part, I think and responsibility of being human right. And asking ourselves, you know, how do I want to be in the world. And I think an important part about that you just said to is that aspiration is a key level or two in terms of that we all have a set of hopes and dreams that we're looking for, for kind of building, designing a better space. And I think that's something that was really interesting, too, just to also call out the the work that you have written the book you put out on, you know, building and designing inclusive cities, you know, one of the the areas just that was, you know, not to be academic for a second, but just to point out that was helpful in terms of even thinking about how people typically will define disability and something that you pointed out there was that, you know, oftentimes you see people having a medicalized notion or medicalized definition of it, right, that kind of makes it transpersonal or kind of outside of one's own individual experience, but are an essentialist identity is I think, how he talked about it, but then what I appreciated about your approach that you said that like, it's also important to think about this as like, if we're talking about we don't want to look at disability in the ability as like a like the simple simply kind of like as a medical abnormality, but rather as a problem of design right to your point of like that how we set the world up for ourselves and for others is more real, in essence, right? Like, are we seeing This is a problem of design as a failure between, you know, kind of agents in one's environment because of how we're setting things up. And I think that that's such an important point. That's one of the advantages that I appreciate that, to tag on to the idea of aspirations, what we're looking for in the world, it's that when we approach whether it's a physical environment or something like that, from a question of design also, right, it's, it's one, as humans, we have a capacity to design our environments. And we do, right, we're talking about a designed environment right now, you know, through digital technologies. And at the same time, that also opens that space to tell us we can design something else, right, that one, this was a choice which we have to interrogate and then also, we choose if we're able to design design, elsewise. So I'm just curious your thoughts about this, like how we can kind of juggle the ideas of, of aspirations of what we're looking for to build and change, whether in ourselves or a system and then recognizing the design aspects of our world to and like, that's something that we can respond to.

Victor Pineda  16:01  

Okay, well, I think there's three things. First, there's the ability to look at the world objectively, look at the world subject of race. Agon find needing between the two. There, when you look at the world objective ratio, you see that there is a lot of inequality. There's a lot of structured, yeah, whether racism, sexism, ableism, ageism, there's a lot of ways in which, collectively, you Webb's institutionalized different set of values. You know, what, what are valued functions in society, like it was in the social contract, I'm sure was left out of the social block. And those that are locked out of the social contract, are by definition, deviant. They're not the human nature, narrow, not the contributors. They are not the builders of not sad bricks that binds us together. But rather, they're the ones that weigh us down or somehow create confusion, dissonance. For people with disabilities. We have been seeing us liabilities and assets. It's only been until recently that we have the conditions by which your Ford advancement, understand and dance that's why technology in that sense with political, social, economic, and cultural, its basis for that diverse existence being to find a way to flourish are a way of contributing. But I do think that objectively, if you were to add up a set of indicators, a set of measurements, the world has a lot better, objectively, caption now than it ever has. Even though there are identical, like 36 armed conflicts in the world today. You know, the amount of war the amount of debt, the amount of destruction, the route insert mortality, about diseases, the amount trashy. Children of school, all of these development indicators are better now than they have ever been. Yes, there are some indicators where we're slipping back, I'm not going to paint the rosy picture, but I'm just saying that it's easy to be pessimistic. It's easy to fall into the trap us leading the world, you know, us as sort of sliding into despair. But I do think that this subjective experience is incredibly important as well, because even those objective indicators around your maternal health and the percentage of girls and women graduating college and, you know, a range of other indicators and shipper development. They don't matter. If people subjectively feel or stuff like people We are suffering from some just mental health challenges and social anxiety and you know, a range of other sort of pathological conditions around. Now loneliness separate, right? So how do we create the conditions whose good lives for Aristotle's approach? Oh, demonia right, which is happiness flourishing? You know, how do we look at Epicurious, the concept surrounding tranquility and freedom from fear in the absence of physical pain, and, you know, living a simple life, when the world seems to be spinning out of control? And then the third aspect is how do we fit this size, the gap between the objective world and our subjective experience and in the face of absurdity, choose to create meaning that choose that there is found value in this messy, you know, stones 90 Stone soon, you know, thinking about John Paul Assange, and talk to you about our shared existential condition. And the universalized states. And we should have an experience in our pursuit for freedom, individual collective responsibilities are sort of to add up alienation, right? The ability to sort of understand that there is a fair bit of this human honest, that thrives, by understood others should give meaning to our experience. So, I think that if you look at my body of work, you know, I stopped watching when I was seven years old. And I had a spiritual experience when I was 13, where I was handed a little enlightening experience, because my father was trying to find a cure. The Eastern matters such as Western medicine can address a lot of my, the reality that my body was getting weaker and weaker. So at the age of 13, a little tiny restaurant with a village where there was a holy Ranch, my father chose to explore, away and nearly me, and, and wasn't fifth, it was something shifted, I was there because I almost saw this revelation of the world. And the universe as being this very valuable co creation, material, my individual spirit, and that was his collective consciousness. As a child, I realized, you know, nobody's gotten the answers. And I can I can make this thing I can make this whole life, whatever it wanted to be. And so I kind of didn't take things. All that seriously, I sort of just found a way to be playful with the world around me. And so what I'm trying to say is, whether it's negotiating in Russia, human rights treaty that has been adopted by 180 countries, whether it was my work on the master plan of Dubai, and helping to shape policy in Dubai, United Arab Emirates, whether it was my work on the national mobility strategy of Ecuador. There's a range of ways that I've shown up in a very with a lot of curiosity, to figure out how am I willing to experience my knowledge kids leave the world do for the better, and found it and for me, that was fun. That was flourishing for me that was, you know, alleviating pain. For myself and others. For me, that was my pursuit of freedom and responsibility.

Adam  24:56  

Now, thank you for sharing that. That was beautiful. I'm sitting here, you know, you Hearing hearing you say this and thinking about the recently in my own life, too, I have begun to ask, you know, I mean, I'm drawn to similar kinds of questions, you know, always has been, have been. But at the same time, recently, the importance of play in playfulness, not taking things too seriously as has really entered my consciousness as a, as something to pay attention to, and that both is inside of me. And I think inside of all of us, you know, most of the times, we kind of ignore that the side of ourselves or think that it's somehow frivolous, right, or not, like an important part of the quote, unquote, serious work of, you know, doing whatever it is that we're doing. And so I am intrigued in appreciate hearing that because it's like, this interesting form of, I guess, collective validation, that there's something about that, too, and like, how do we ask that question and, and have the courage to be to be playful, especially when we're thinking about that again, and Brett like, you know, the craziness of the world today, it seems, but then also, the the craziness of things that life throws at us, right, even as you're saying to, in your own kind of experience, that 13 One, having this moment, you know, when working in the small ashram, I think is a really, really compelling area to then think about what does that mean for like, how do we approach life with with kind of a playfulness or levity? I think that's really interesting, too, because again, like, on the one hand, you know, we could we could and do and should, then we will look at your work as as like this, on one level, very serious body of work, that head has had tremendous impact globally, you know, in country level internationally. And I applaud that work, I think it's it's been, I mean, it's such such important work in changing how people have access to, you know, to well being to city planning to who has seats at tables, and questions that we need to continue to asking. And at the same time, then this idea of on one, driving happiness from the kind of work itself, but then also, you know, through, as you said, to a form of showing up with curiosity, and having a sense of playfulness with it, too, I think, is really important. I mean, an important lesson for the world today also, because, you know, again, there's a lot of serious things going on, that there's there's power in taking a moment to smile and to laugh, and to kind of like play with play with an idea to and kind of show up with curiosity as a as a form of lightness. So I'm just kind of curious thinking about that, that idea, because, you know, one of the ideas that that we had talked about before that I wanted to bring with this, to me, we said it a little bit before was that, you know, all this also is kind of pointing us towards this, this your your, your kind of other work about unlocking human potential by designing it today, right, and then recognizing that we have the power to act today on these kinds of spaces. So I mean, is in this case, two is, are things like playfulness, understanding the idea of like, you know, showing up with curiosity, are these elements that you think about when you're approaching a question like, unlocking human potential? Like, how do you how do you approach that question with through your story?

Victor Pineda  27:53  

Wow, thanks for that question. I like that a lot. It's good. I think there's two parts to that first, line dot, your blank dot like that, each row is my origin face. And like, you know, God with compassion, curiosity, you know, the little scabs or scars, that life and French upon us, you know, I'm not saying that we have to continue to, and to recycle us. No doubt. But I do think that even when Socrates says, you know, the unexamined life, you know, is not worth living. Now, not saying that there's no value in the unexamined life, but I'm saying that marries the value and sort of being around my questionnaires, and the world and your place in it, and maximum a place having nice, but no place, continuous discovery and gravity. Now, you know, my foundations, they is a way that I make my values manifest in the world. And I was an undergraduate at Berkeley, when I realized that I wanted to dedicate my life towards unlocking human potential and no clue how that we're up panning out. But, you know, there were big challenges. And I knew that I was in a place in my life or in a place was my education, where I will have something to contribute to those grand challenges. So I would encourage people to check out and the piano Foundation, the virtual period of validation, and understand how we're tackling You know, issues in AI governance, and technology governance, right. So Reg, it's more equitable, and inclusive, that we could build the future today. You know, thinking about, you know, it's not addressing in the digital age, what does it mean to sort of understand, you know, the lived experience, or the phenomenology where we're at today, there are new cultural narratives, and sort of understanding you met. And I'm challenging those questions around, you know, diversity inclusion, you know, how does that all play out in terms of governance and the way that we build cities, we also started an educational program, and a training program for both corporations, and for governments around inclusive innovation, to really support, you know, leaders that want to leverage emerging technologies to drive improvement, or to think about the ways that ESG environmental social governance considerations, you know, could be central to the ways that maybe a company develops its products, or supports its employees or recruit more employees with disabilities or engages with communities and partnerships, in that ultimately, with World enabled, which is all right, Division of our nonprofit that develops, consultancy and advisory services, is really rolling up our sleeves as partners, with other corporations and other governments Mladic sort of shift and evolve their approaches. And one of the things that we've established, for example, with the Chief Technology Officer in Amsterdam, was developed a three year project to leverage the city's AI, works work, and some of the university partnerships to develop a set of tools that will allow the city to audit sidewalks and then as Jim paths for accessibility. So it's quite practical in terms of helping the city identify data that could create heat map. So instead of sending 1000 People have clipboards, I think the city, you could feed out with millions of photographs, and get some additional results about accessibility, that they could create better interventions in the city around infrastructure upgrades. So those are some ways that I continue to be curious and playful, but yet to have an impact. And even by work as a as a philanthropist, and as an investor also includes my ability to drive resources towards people in project now, I think, will advance the values that I think be distorted live on beyond, beyond me or my lifetime. So all hands down, just playful, curious, and that's not to minimize she portents, and II. You know, the seriousness, Assamese, and it's often a pouch that makes it be more meaningful or sustainable, and more in your MO. Now, that's,

Adam  34:27  

that's really wonderful. I appreciate you sharing those and walking through those examples to you, you pre staged my question, which was to walk us into some of these ideas. And then but what I really loved about how you You spelled these ideas out these projects that you're working on, I mean, they all sound amazing. So for one, I think we need to have a sequel conversation to dive into some of these. But what I really appreciated here also is how you connected impact work to playfulness and curiosity. And I think that's really important too. I don't know if if either I was subtext really saying that but it's a good point to realize. I was not intending to to kind To say that playfulness and curiosity are somehow not impact oriented. So I think that was actually right on that use you said we actually we can and should glue these together, right? That we can actually have impact in a way that is that is fun. That's that's curiosity driven, that's playful. And doing it in ways again, that work with like, again, corporate initiatives like dei diversity, equity, inclusion, ESG, environmental social governance, but that also, I think, really intriguing to to think about, how can we more wisely enact our values using technology to help cities become more accessible, for example, and it's a really, really compelling project as well. So I love the way that you kind of bring these those pieces together, that curiosity and playfulness and impact can and can and should go ahead and go hand in hand and like in this case, through the data foundation and world enable to the most part of your nonprofit, the the ways that these can actually melt, pardon the pun play together, right.

Victor Pineda  35:52  

We have a lot of fun. Can we like it's important work? If, you know, we have great partners and donors and we are the international stars Garin so if you like with the Harlem Globetrotters you know, we've got there on the court did we pass fact the ball, we're not just trying to shoot? That's the back topology that holds but we're trying to do it in a way that is not so light hearted and enjoyable. But by hand, I'm I want to ask you something. You know, where do you see, you know, anthropology having the next decade, particularly with the advances of technology are changing global dynamics. And the reason why I asked that is because you've done so many interviews. Let me see it answer lies in where do you want to see the conversations going? And? And how can we continue to help you with your rubbish?

Adam  37:02  

Oh, that's, that's a really kind kind of question. You know, I It's true. I've been doing this Anthro life for for 10 years now. And in part, it was created out of a desire to have more conversational anthropology for starters, because typically, a lot of the the information like there's a lot of wonderful studies and anthropology and I think incredibly important work in terms of the larger mission of making the world safe for human differences. And that's the mission that I share. But what I didn't typically see, and this is language I'm using now is that while there was curiosity at play, there wasn't a lot of playfulness in anthropology. And as someone who also thinks we take the world a little bit too seriously, ourselves too seriously, too often, you know, I had to ask, what would it look like? And what would it feel like to make anthropology more of an accessible medium, and an avenue? And, you know, my, my vision, Bourbon is for what anthropology can do is that there will be more public facing anthropologists, so that, you know, people would have a sense of, you know, we're very used to, on the one hand to hearing a economist or behavioral economist, sometimes a sociologist, pop on to NPR, or some public radio station for an interview, you know, and occasionally in a newspaper, I would love to see more anthropologists, particularly because we bring to your point in ethnographic perspective, which is helping us get a sense of the actual lived reality of people on the ground, but then also a holistic perspective that lets us understand, you know, how do different, you know, larger systems and issues of class and equality or inequality in gender come into play with how we interact in the world, and that it's not that everything is insanely complex, but just it's a recognition that there is often complexity at play. And there are ways of explaining that in simple forms, right? It's just that it's that complexity takes a little bit of time to to explain more simply, it's not that it's dumbing it down. And so I think I'd love to see more skills of helping more holistic thinkers and ographers anthropologists have more of an impact on the world. And so that can be I think we're using technologies, right, you know, I've, I've done some work with AI and big data and ethnography, and it was a really interesting and tantalizing look at where technology could take our interpretive lenses as anthropologists, I think there's more training that we need in that space. And, and honestly, just like helping anthropologists get a sense of social scientists on this side, getting a sense of that it's okay to do this kind of work. I mean, there's, there's still a lot of bias in academia against doing this kind of work. And I know we need to help promote that. So that's maybe part of our mission with the center life and some of the other work that I do, as well.

Victor Pineda  39:40  

And gap strikes. I barely ever hear the perspective of people with disabilities, right, older persons. So those those are really systemic gaps. Yeah. So I think you A lot of my research you serve in the field on institutional anthropology. And, like the anthropology of institutions, and understanding dummer rents and sort of these systems as imperfect, or at least, with major gaps. So I'm thinking more about governance is how we can create better governance by design. And that's the that's the game. That's the topic of my next book coming out in January 2024. It's called inclusion belonging in cities of tomorrow, governance and access by design. So send you a link to, to net so bad skin. saying, yeah, check it out.

Adam  41:03  

That sounds great. I mean, so yeah, if you're up for it, too, I'd love to have you back on to talk about that. You know, there's, there's, I think so many, so many exciting areas to spin off here. Yeah. And I think that's, that's right. It's like, there's, there's space, I think, like, you know, institutional anthropology, organizational topology, I think are fundamentally important areas, because we can bring that holistic perspective into how is an organization governed and run. And so in your case, like in an urban design context, but also in a governance context of a corporation, right? You know, I mean, as a business owner, apologist, myself too, it's a, I agree with you in C like, it's, it's fundamentally important to have a broader perspective. You know, it's like we already know, like, the, the simple things like quarter term thinking is not great for long term well being. Right, for humans are organizations. And so even this idea of like, inclusion and belonging, also having more voices at the table, having more perspectives at the table, you know, it's like, diversity is not about, do I recognize that I have a perspective, but it's like, do we actually have different perspectives at the table that are able to make decisions, you know, is fundamental. So I think that that's, that's right on, and I'm super excited to check out, check out your book, and kind of build build on what's next together. So I just wanted to say that I very much appreciate you joining me on the podcast today. And then hanging out. And again, I would love to love to continue the conversation. And, you know, is in any way as to as I can support your work. I mean, I'm so excited that interpretative Foundation is doing some incredible work that I'd love to highlight and keep sharing as well. So I think it's the idea of building a virtuous cycle together, right, of helping put out the right projects, and helping elevate them amongst each other, is the work that we can do. Now,

Victor Pineda  42:39  

I think thank you for having me. And well, we're excited about production. Next year is not only getting other cities involved, looking at this, when developing an AI playbook for in person and accessible cities, to take the experience in Amsterdam, and create partnerships or cities to deploy technology to identify and eliminate barriers, right, that's, and then a Qatar, they've asked us to come up with a design guidelines for neurodiversity. Sonnerie, think about public spaces, from a sensory perspective, right? So those are all parts of working on our relationship in the built environment. We're looking at ways of finding better experiences. So definitely want to keep people engaged in that work, and invite people to sort of follow connect with me on LinkedIn, where I share a lot of lights, thoughts, and sort of articles, as well as on Instagram, as well. So yeah, there's there's a lot to share and a lot to learn, and a lot to contribute to such

Adam  44:08  

a huge pleasure. Well, what a fantastic and thought provoking conversation that we've had today. With Victor Pineda, we've explored important topics about human rights, accessibility and the approach to life with playfulness and curiosity, as well as the need of designing inclusive cities and systems. We've been to a lot of places. This conversation is a reminder of the complexities and the intricacies of the human condition, plus our abilities to creatively respond to those challenges. A big thanks to Victor for sharing his extensive knowledge and experiences with me. And I encourage all of you all to reflect on these insights and consider their implications in your own lives and what that might mean for society. You know, how would you understand and leverage your own life experiences and perspectives to contribute to society in a more inclusive way? What does it mean to make a more inclusive society? That inquiry is key, as is, of course, playfulness and curiosity. So keep asking those tough questions. For anyone interested in learning more about the subject matter, don't forget to check out Victor's next book on inclusion and belonging and cities of tomorrow, governance and access by design. And for hands on involvement, you might want to also engage with the banana foundation and world enable these links in our show notes. And as always, I want to let you know that I'm deeply grateful for every member of our community. Your support makes these important conversations possible, so please consider subscribing to the show. If you haven't already. Leave us a review. Give us a like, even a comment on YouTube is helpful. And share this episode with a friend who might enjoy it. And don't forget, you can also get more content out of all of this good stuff from the Anthro curious substack blog. Finally, I welcome your feedback, story ideas and suggestions for future episodes. Any guests or folks that you think should be on the show? Hit me up. My Virtual door is always open. Let's continue these meaningful discussions together. And until next time, remember, stay curious, keep questioning and keep living. This Anthro Life. I'm your host Adam Gamwell, we'll see you next time.