The Impact of Community-Centered Preservation on Micronesian Culture

Adam  00:02

Hello and welcome to This Anthro Life. I'm your host, Adam Gamwell. Today I'm talking with Ashley Meredith,  actually a cultural anthropologist for the Office of the National Archives of the Federated States of Micronesia. Yes, you heard that correctly, her job title is a cultural anthropologist. In case you're not familiar, Micronesia is a sovereign island country and coast situated northeast of Australia and property that consists of 600 or so islands covering a massive area, around 1 million square lines. There are 80 languages spoken across the islands. So Ashley's got her work cut out for that what's interesting about this is the many levels that work out as a cultural anthropologist, now echoing what we might call a traditional fieldwork approach works with a team to document preserve, and establish cultural pathways for different Micronesian communities. This includes work like graphics, surveys, linguistic studies, and observational fields. But her work is also what we call applied anthropology. She talks with communities to understand what they want in terms of infrastructure, tourism, education, or heritage development, and works with them to find resources, and generate funding and support, and be honest, she interfaces between communities, government, and international relations, including with the United States, and UNESCO. So Ashley's breadth of experience provides the key perspective for rethinking how we use data and what the role of anthropology is, in today's world. This includes why we need qualitative data in a world obsessed with numbers, but also how transmission matters. As we explore in this conversation, transmission has to do with cultural practices like storytelling, as much as with technological limitations, such as internet speed across the islands. Now our conversation kicks off here. So let's jump into it right after this. In terms of like, the ethnographic side of your work, how do you how do you kind of pick the things that you study? Like is in terms of fish markets? Or what folks are working on? We'll get to some cultural heritage sites, you know, but I'm curious like in this like, is it the everyday examples? Also, like how does that pop up in your radar things to, focus on

Ashley  02:17

the way we figure out which are what we're going to document, we go to the communities and ask them what they would like to see happen, and what would be the most useful to them. And so when I first arrived in Yap, that's exactly what we did. We talked with the chiefs, because you know, there's a different protocol on each of the islands, even if you go to the outer islands, there's still a protocol to follow. So in Yap, we talked with the chiefs who represent their communities, and then they identify a topic or a few topics that we can work with, and then provide that back to them so that it's useful to them in some way. Sometimes it's a matter of, we just want this documented. And sometimes it's a matter of, we really like more information about this so that we can utilize it for whatever activity. So when I arrived in kosher, I, actually the first thing we did was, we did an ethnographic training. So part of my work initially was to train my my co workers in what I do, so that we can have a team. And then the other part of the training evolved and incorporated the elders who we would interview so that they could know about the process instead of just surprising them and saying, Hey, let's let's do an interview, it became much more of a conversation with them. And they actually they guided the process. And they helped to design and inform the research design that we ultimately employ when we do ethnographic surveys. And so when we were in the communities asking them, after we did the training, hey, what would be most beneficial? What is it you want to do in your communities, they wanted to do a lot more trail guide work, they wanted to have places for visitors to go, they want to share their island with visitors, mostly through trails and historic sites. And so that's how we found out what they wanted was the research design development process, which was the first part of my work, and then them telling us the traditional routes is what they wanted to focus on. And then that actually turned into a bunch of other stuff. The Conservation Area, it helped to connect parts of the island from the past to today and then to the you know, between the communities. So it really it's a common phrase and anthropology but it really did develop a deeper understanding about the interconnectivity on the island and the the reasons people would walk as far as they did, or you know, now they'll drive. So that's those topics, but in terms of fishing in the market, so that's just us like everyday living, and it somehow comes in To play, as we carry out field work, keeping those things in mind, if we meet up with someone who's, you know, we're supposed to interview with them and they canceled on us, it might be because they need to go fishing that day, because it's a better day than the day before. So there are a lot of daily life things that me and my co workers need to be aware of. So that, you know, our expectations aren't too high. And, you know, expectations can upset people. So it's good to just go with the flow. Literally,

Adam  05:31

that makes me think that mean, that's a really interesting framework and reminds me a bit of the the fieldwork I did in Peru for my graduate degree, that working with indigenous farmers, you know, the schedule of when we would have meetings would be dictated sometimes by just like, Okay, well, I actually have, okay, sorry, I couldn't harvest yesterday, I have to do it today or something like, there's a lot more like daily things that can like shift when you would have a meeting? How, in your experience, I'm curious, since you're employed that to do this, you know, I mean, I guess a PhD student could be to have like, as a graduate of doing field work, but I can since this is your employment, how does that square where does that work? Well, in terms of like, we already know, we're in Micronesia, and the government is okay, with the kind of changing schedule nature of things are going with the flow? Like, how does that does that affect the way they think about work? In your work, too, in terms of like scheduling interviews or documentation with folks?

Ashley 06:28

I think, in general, the expectation is that were that we're at least part of the office, whether we're actually in the office, that depends on whether we have fieldwork or not, I would say that things are flexible, we do talk with people after hours. So I might have a longer lunch. I mean, my fieldwork is really like with my co workers, as everyone's schedule can allow, we always prioritize the elders, because we never know what's going to happen with them. They are older, they could have health problems, or they could be getting their grandkids that day. And you know what we'd rather them spend time with their grandkids than tell us oral history, because that's the transmission right there. You know, so the governor, I think, overall, the government's very flexible with the kind of work that we do. But it's, it's not abused, I think that our team is really into like they're enthusiastic about what we're doing, they see things come into fruition, which is very different than like working with an abstract model, you actually get to see the results of your work pretty quickly. The reports take time, of course, the government agencies overall are pretty understanding about it. But we do have to keep in mind a lot of people's schedules, not just ours, and telling people when we want to do something doesn't always work out. If we get canceled on two or three times, then we might understand that they really just don't want to be interviewed. And so we don't push it, it's really if they want to be if they want to share than they share what they can, there is a it depends on the island. But sometimes the thinking is that if you tell the whole story that you may pass away soon, so some people don't really want to tell much, or they won't tell anything at all. Because of that belief, knowledge is power. And I think that they're keenly aware of that it's an it's an important value. Not everybody can be a navigator or a chief or whatever role, they're everyone has a role. And it's seen in that way. So if, if you want to know about navigation, you need to talk to a navigator you don't go and talk to somebody else who's not a navigator. So there, it's either them or it's nothing, some topics they just might not talk about, or they'll tell part of it. And that's okay. I mean, you can never get the whole story out of someone. I mean, the way I think of it is somebody is 80 years old, and they're going to tell me about navigation, they're going to take about 80 years to tell me about navigation. Like they've been alive that long, they probably have a lot to say. And their knowledge as a navigator isn't just this linear interaction. It's it's knowledge of lots of things and bringing it all together. I mean, navigators have a very, very, they have a delicate role. If you ask me, they have to be good with people, they have to know medicine, they have to know how to get from A to B, and they have to know animals. And you know, there's just there's so many things that they have to know. Because when you're on a boat with a few other people, and you're maybe having a version of cabin fever, what do you do to keep the morale up? I mean, you got to know a lot of stuff. So and that's just one example. So each person has a very significant role. And I figured it would take a lifetime to tell me all about it. So I don't ever expect that someone's going to tell me the whole story to begin with. I just feel honored that they're going to share part of a story.

Adam  09:36

That's a really interesting idea. There's a belief that knowledge is power. And so sharing, sharing, it may have some kind of implications for one's own. I don't know, like energy, it almost seems I mean, this makes me think in terms of like the overproduction of knowledge that we have in other parts of the world. You know, and it is visible with power, but then also like, is it I mean, it's kind of the flip side is like by giving out that knowledge you are really losing one's power or losing one's energy almost too. Yeah,

Ashley 10:03

I think I think so. And it your usefulness to society as well. If someone's seeking your guidance, that's a whole other story. But it's still, it's still a kind of knowledge sharing. It sounds like an energy transference, usefulness, or the perceived will to live, maybe I'm not saying that people tell stories so that they can die off or anything. You know, if you tell everything, then maybe there's just not the interest, not the purpose there, the way that it might have been before. It's a concept that I don't fully understand, admittedly, but I do know that they will be talked to some of the elders that, that they sometimes they'll they'll defer and say, you know, I'm not going to talk about that now. Or I'm just not going to talk about it. And I'll talk about something else. And that's fine. I have some interviews, though, with the people for I've had to come back. And we talked, I think a total of 16 hours, one of my favorite ways of data collection is something that I don't even know if it's a term that everybody else uses, but me and my graduate advisor called it an ethnographic walkthrough. And so what this means is we go to a place or we, you know, we do something together. And it's almost like a, it's like an elicitation device. And it's a it's a conversation. So I actually don't, I don't provide a question transcript, I don't think that that's, I don't think that's as holistic as as we can be. But also other things come up that are important to them, and then overall in Micronesia, that it just wouldn't work, like history starts from a place from a topic. And so that's how we, we collect oral histories from from a topic. So we, we do ethnographic walkthrough so that we can be comfortable together that we can understand the context of the topic, and also start the topic. So sometimes people can literally walk through a site. Other times we drive around the island and have conversations in the car with each other. And that's the, that's the activity, and it's just being together is the important part that we're having that under that shared understanding are developing the shared understanding about what is being shared. And sometimes it takes me a while because I don't have all the historical backdrop that the person telling me has the story.

Adam  12:30

I mean, it makes me think of the anthropologist Keith pessoas wrote about like, wisdom sits in places in terms of working with the Apache two in terms of that, like place names are stories, very cool to kind of think of the echo there. So literally, it could be walking through a site, it could be driving through a certain area. And then that can elicit stories are places named, I mean, I'm not trying to make a comparison with the Apache, but like, are there other like place names in similar ways in terms of like, this is named, whatever. And like the name is like the rock where two things happened. Or I'm just curious, like how do does naming work amongst folks in the different islands, they're usually descriptive,

Ashley 13:06

I'm trying to think of a good example. So like a valley, it'll literally be like, if you break the words apart, it might be something that's like, dug out. So what we know in English is Valley, it's not going to be transliterated into a shrine, for example, it's going to be the way that someone might look at the landscape up into a valley and they see something that's cut out. And so the word might, it might translate to be cut out. Sometimes it can be like two things happened here. There's also not necessarily in all languages in Micronesia, but sometimes a word can be ascribed to a place or a thing. And that word actually is a reference to another word that is very rarely spoken. And so it's like a double language. Sometimes it's dubbed as a secret language. It's like with any language, you have codes on codes on codes. And when we learn a second language, or if we're learning two languages in the home, we have our code switching in our code mixing and it's, it's kind of similar when communicating with a Micronesian in a Micronesian language, that you have code mixing and code switching and, and that other person who's receiving the words or the symbols, they they will either know or they don't know what if they don't know then they're not in possession of the information that they need to have to do this other thing. So it's a it's a little bit complicated, and it takes time. That's another thing that can happen with the place names. I do keep track of place names as we go along. And I keep track of sometimes when they came into being used, even if it's not necessarily a local name, a local place name, so to speak. So like Micronesia Melanesia, Polynesia that was important for us for a while and taking note of when that word came into existence to describe where we are and who started it. That was important for, for our knowledge for a while, which is really interesting anyway,

Adam  15:12

they tell some interesting, like global and then local stories, too, I imagine, you know, the question of like language names, if you know, kind of the code, the code switching or like, you know, double languages that, that also seems to speak to this idea of, of knowledge is power, right? And then that, like, there's also like a local local pneus to it right that like, how much do you really know? And even if I tell you, do you actually know what I'm saying, you know, like, how deep do we actually ever get? Or how can we, you know, How deep can we get what you think is really, really interesting, and I'm curious, like your perspective in this too. So as like a cultural anthropologist, socio linguist, like working in Micronesia for a while now, how many? How many years? Have you been working in this space?

Ashley 15:51

I started in January of 16. I've been working with the governments there. Since then, continuously, during the pandemic, I needed to come back to the state. So I've continued to work but remotely. And at first, it was a C 14 months in Yap. And then it's been kosher, I'm mostly, it doesn't really matter which island I'm on, I still work with the other offices remotely. So I'm always in a remote working situation. But I'm on the ground in the location where field work is more concentrated, or in need of more training or something about that island, is why I'm, I'm physically present. But if if the other offices need me, then my office in their office coordinate, and they'll move me there temporarily, like for a couple of weeks for field work, or training, or whatever it is, that is meeting me on the ground there. So we, we have to always adapt in that way. And it's not easy to move around in the in the islands there are, you know, we're talking about a million square miles, that's huge. It is huge. And it's about 600 Islands, and I think it's around, he's around 150 that have like human settlements. But from our perspective, all the islands are inhabited, because they're incorporated into maybe subsistence, or if there's a certain rite of passage or a certain route that you have to go to make sure you show respect, especially for the navigators, then all the islands are getting utilized. So think of it like so I think in the States, we we'd like to have like to think of our land as these like very discreet geographical boundaries. And it's not separated necessarily by bodies of water, or a body of water. But in the case of Micronesia, if you have a an island that you live on, and then there's another island, you're allowed to go fishing or hunting around, it's kind of like just going to the extent of your farmland, right? If you have 30 acres or whatever, you just go to the other if you're going to the other side of it, it's kind of the same idea. In the 70s. I think it was during, it was like Law of the Sea discussion, I think UNESCO was involved in that just came up a lot, actually the concept of water and the concept of land. And I think we as Americans, I think initially we think of okay, we got all this land, and it's just contiguous, and we just keep going. With water, it might be seen as a barrier. Water is seen as a pathway, it is not a barrier. It's the grocery store. And it's the it's the boat route, it's the sailing route, it's you know, it's a, it's a way to get from A to B and it might be faster, honestly, at times, especially, I like to make a joke with my friends out there. First of all, there's this phrase coconut wireless, and it just refers to communicating verbally, like you tell somebody something, and then they tell whatever, they tell another person. And so me and my, one of my girlfriends, and yeah, she and I joke about this, because the Internet can be so slow. And like, you know, I bet I could send a message with somebody flying out of coach right today. And it would get to you faster than if I sent it via Facebook, because we don't know when you're getting online or if the internet will be working. By the time you you know, this message leaves. And so you joke around and we're like, oh, coconut wireless is faster. There are definitely some differences in how we conceive of where we are. And I know that you know, it's a bit of the environmental determinism. It doesn't have to be that way. But we can't lie to ourselves and say that our environment doesn't shape the way we think about things and that is different. It can be different from other places. But I you know, living out there I just think to myself, you know, everything I needed to know about life I learned from living in Micronesia, we're not that different in terms of being humans and human desires. But the way we go about it, you know, that's the that's the age old aspect of anthropology is that it's expressed differently. group, the group and micro group the micro group And so it's really cool to see how that is done out there. And I like it, like, identify really well with that. I can't remember when it started, but I think it was an I think it was in college, undergrad, I've just wanted to move to the Pacific. Like, that's just been my objective. I want to go to the Pacific, I want to live there. I want to be an anthropologist there. And I don't know where it came from. But there's something about being out there that feels very comfortable and natural to me.

Adam  20:29

Did you? Did you visit when you were younger? Or was it like something just kind of gotten your bones that you like? Did you read something I'm wondering like a video or somewhere else, we just got the call of the call of the Pacific. So

Ashley 20:40

it was before I moved to Hawaii, I was. I hadn't really gone outside of the United States except for like a cruise that my parents. They took us on when I was in undergrad. And so we stopped in a couple of places. And that was the extent of it. I had never visited outside of the Caribbean. And I went to school in Georgia. It Yeah, nothing there. I think I just, if anything when I was really young, around seven years old, I was in Montessori School. So Montessori school comes with, you know, self teaching, learning how to self teach independence, independent learning those kinds of things. And I just thought, you know, communication is really important. Like, I think this was during the time of, honestly, the Gulf War. Anyway, there was some war going on. And I just thought, you know, why do we have to fight this is not necessary. Maybe I can just like talk between these groups. And like, maybe they're just having a misunderstanding. And so I became very determined to learn Spanish at a very early age. So that the other options were president and an astronaut. Yeah, I mean, I was serious about becoming the first president. And then I just thought, you know, I'm not really sure I'm going to be able to accomplish that much as a as a president. And then the astronaut thing I, I just really did not like the G forces that I experienced in Huntsville, Alabama. So flying was a major part of becoming an astronaut. I just thought, nope, that's not for me. So they sound kind of naive. But those were those were all those were my three things that I wanted to do when I was younger. And so being like a cultural mediator was the one that I really, I really followed. And so Spanish had been part of my life for a long time, all the way into undergrad, I just wanted to learn Spanish, like, I didn't have a really good reason for getting a degree in Spanish, other than I wanted to study Spanish. That was it. I just wanted to study Spanish and actually international business too. And I just kept telling myself, no, like, don't get a degree in Spanish, like, get something functional. And my parents were like, whatever get, do whatever you like, like, if you like Spanish, just do it, you'll figure something out. So while I was in denial about how much I loved learning Spanish, I'd studied computer science and photography and art history, information technology, and all of that ended up going towards like a business minor and some stuff like that. So the Spanish, I think, somewhere in the middle of learning Spanish, I read about South America, and the importance, I think, for me, I felt like biological knowledge was very much wrapped up in local languages. And I felt that documentation was a very important thing to do, to protect that knowledge until we understood it better. And then we could decide what to do with it, you know, collectively as a species, not necessarily Americans or South Americans, in general. So anyhow, that's where Hawaii came in. I wanted to go to Hawaii to learn socio linguistics because my, my Spanish degree, I had a Spanish linguist in for one of my classes. And she just she opened up my world, she taught me everything that I could possibly be curious about as an undergrad, in in socio linguistics and so that's when I moved to Hawaii. And I think, as I was moving out to Hawaii, that's when I just I think I just decided that I was going to the Pacific I don't know why. It's

Adam  24:12

amazing that you both like then felt that want it and then did it though too, which is which is which is admirable.

Ashley 24:18

I ended up going to graduate school in Alaska. And I just kept I was in an Applied Linguistics program and did a bit of documentation with Alaska languages. And then I had a I don't know how it happened, but basically, I was not. I was really not an applied linguist. I was really thinking like an anthropologist, and someone's pointed this out to me. And so I switched graduate programs. And I became I went to anthropology and I had been developing a proposal in my applied linguistics program to focus on language in chat, chat rooms. I felt that this was important because we were increasingly communicating in a digital world. And we wouldn't have all the usual cues. This wasn't a very topic, popular topic at the time. It was not supported. And it was an anthropology of there it was in comparison to how much I had thought about Hawaii and talked about Hawaii, they the department was like, why don't you focus on Hawaii for your thesis? So that's how that happened.

Adam  25:25

Like chat rooms in Hawaii, like no, no language. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Ashley 25:28

So it despite what I thought I wanted to do, it still happened, but in a different way. And now I use linguistics a lot. I don't document languages, but the linguistic background helps a lot. And guess what, I use Spanish a

Adam  25:44

lot. That's interesting. So I would I would not expect that in Micronesia, you know, I

Ashley 25:48

had no idea how I was going to put them together. Because other than Spanish colonization, I really had no idea how Spanish and the Pacific were gonna go together. And I was just figuring you know, what, if I really liked Spanish, then I'm just going to keep speaking Spanish. And if I like the Pacific, I'm just gonna keep living out there. And then one project, we were looking for some stuff. And there it was in Spanish about Yeah,

Adam  26:15

interesting. Let's see. Got it. Yeah. We're going to take a quick break to hear from this episode's sponsored, we'll be right back. The world is big until you start moving around, you realize how small it actually is, when we see those connectivity, right. So like, one lesson for the kids listening is that you can study Spanish and get a job in the South Pacific, it's okay.

Ashley 26:48

Probably the best one of the best pieces of advice I got from my parents was to just do it because you like it, and the rest will work itself out. I think that those were the actual words of my dad,

Adam  27:00

we have to hope it's like, it's funny, because even like that we're talking up top in terms of the, the need to go with the flow in terms of scheduling, you know, ethnographic work with with with folks. Sounds like this, too. It's like it'll work out you just gotta like, not overly planet. And but stick to it. You know, obviously, it's like you You are a cultural anthropologist, in the, like, the National Archives branch of the government in Micronesia. How did that even happen? Because most people that like there's not usually a culture on their part YouTube culture, that apology jobs, that doesn't show up. Most I'm looking in the wrong place.

Ashley 27:34

I do not know where it came from. But when I was in graduate school, I really wanted to, like, I wanted to be called a cultural anthropologist. I don't I mean, I don't know why it just, I was going to school for that. And I just, it was one of the you know, I went into anthropology because that's the way I think that's the way I like to think that's the way I like to interact. And, and then when I was thinking about jobs, I hadn't really thought about what my, what I would be called. And I mean, that's one of the age old problems with anthropology as a degree anyways, you never really know what you're going to be called. And so it was really cool to, to actually be in a position where that's, that's what I'm called. That's what I do. And it's respected. I think that in terms of finding the job, I was, I was just looking for it. The National Park Service still uses this title, actually. And and then the National Park came from working with the national government. So initially, I was the app, state anthropologist, and then Kosrae state. And then national, even though I still helped out with things at national level, it had a matter to do with where my contract was located. And then, and the kind of work that I was doing. So yeah, so it was really through the National Park Service and a listserv that I was on, coming together. And then I saw it. And then one of my cohort friends had actually had the job before that I didn't apply, because I wasn't ready, but he had already gone. And so I had known about it from that, that angle as well.

Adam  29:10

So in this case, like so the US National Park Service has, like foreign service jobs is that was like, how was it categorized? Or is it like this is purely in Micronesia. Is it not the US Park Services? Is it like the Micronesian Park Service?

Ashley 29:22

I knew that the title cultural anthropologist existed in National Park Service, the US won the position itself and FSM it's paid. It's paid via grant funding from the National Park Service, but it's appropriated by the Federated States of Micronesia, so it's totally their call who they hire and what they Yeah, so and there's no it's not really the Micronesia like there's no no that it's just that there's a there's a National Historic Preservation Office, which is the National Archives and then there are four state hpbose And they reside in side Have other government agencies. So in Yap, it's in the Department of Youth and civic affairs, in toolkits in commerce and industry. And then in Pompeii, its Department of Land and resources. And kosher is kosher Island Resource Management Authority. So they all put their historic offices in different agencies, which is really cool. And actually, it reminds me to share that. That was one of the things that I didn't expect, but I'm glad it happened. And I was hopeful for it, the intersection of historic preservation and conservation, we get, we actually get to do a lot of that and ethnography is at the center of that, for example, like the Stingray, in Pompeii, the stingray is called No, no, it also means mother, it's a clan animal. And guess what, there's a stingray sanctuary. It's not a historic, it's a historic site in the sense that there's an ethnographic component to it. But it's not a structure is what I mean, you know, sometimes with the the historic preservation that goes on in the United States, it's really about structures. And it's about physical sites. And that's what Keith bathos vassals work with. So important, and also the traditional cultural properties that King talked about, and Parker talked about, you know, landscapes, they don't have to have built, you know, built structures on them to be important. And so it's really central out there, I would say, don't get me wrong, we have structures. But ethnography is very important to, to, you know, telling both sides, right, the ethnographic and the archaeological side to have a more complete story. And that's, that's a concept that's very well practiced, respected, appreciated, and encouraged out there.

Adam  31:48

That's, that's really interesting, too, because because the minute that is a really valuable point, you know, for folks that are listening, who are not in the South Pacific, like, if you have an idea that oftentimes ethnography and archaeology seem different in terms of like when they get plugged in. And so you have historic preservation, or conservation to getting into the biology and like the environment to it's like they, they don't always get used together, right. Archaeologists are like, I'm working on a site and like, they sometimes will do kind of like modern America, they were modern archaeology, where they're also talking with living populations, but oftentimes, not when sometimes you can't, but like, it's an interesting idea in terms of how they're really well intertwined. Because we're not necessarily talking about a specific site in a place, you know, that that's, that's a built to land farm. And that actually is just like a, like a sanctuary is really cool. And like, it's a nice idea to remind that, like we, there's, there's value in why anthropology is holistic, right? And that, like, we need more examples of it, I think, across the political spectrum, and globally to say, Oh, yes, that's right. This is actually why they work together, right? Why we need to have both or more.

Ashley 32:50

No, you're right, and it's how to explain it. So when I first started out there, I stuck. Like I was asked to stick to the basics. That's what the office needed, they wanted to intensive level ethnographic surveying. And that's exactly what I did. I went by the book, I went by the scientific method, the the population, the number of participants, you know, the whole nine yards. Over the years, it's, it's encouraged me to rethink the scientific method, what it means to have a scientific method, and what it means to be able to replicate a study and why that is considered scientific. As I've gone through it, you know, 30 isn't necessarily the magic number if you don't have 30 people, what are other but also there are other ways to learn about something than just the an algebraic, formulaic, however you want to call it, way of doing things. And so it's, it's definitely challenged my my thinking that I had acquired from graduate school, in a, in a better and more holistic way. It's made me think about companies like Apple and Google, Facebook, what's the other one Intel, their own Southwest, and also JC Penney, maybe with the exception, see Facebook doesn't call them anthropologists. I think they call them user experience, people. And then I think Google might be somewhere between that and I don't think they say anthropologist, either. Southwest, if I'm not mistaken, they have an anthropology department until they have a team of anthropologist I think this was this was recent. And I was totally impressed that, that they bothered to hire an anthropologist, and for a chip. It was too cool. And so it's just made me more thoughtful about the ways that we can be the ways that we were like we have anthropologists on the whole have not been used to their fullest potential. You asked me, our field is so useful. I appreciate that the Federated States of Micronesia realizes both in accounting terms but also like they know they realize the benefit of any anthropologists, so going back to my first couple of years out there, there are a ton of development projects out there, everybody wants to help develop and make this developing economy, a developed economy. And you know what they don't include ethnography as much as they do. But the projects that they do include ethnography go really well. And those companies tend to stay out there. And those projects tend to last. And so increasingly, they're calling our office to be involved to inform things ethnographically, they already know where the sites are, because the in the beginning, when the US had much more of a, there was a territorial Historic Preservation Office, so it was all about site. And so they documented sites, GPS points, and now people are going back and like confirming those taking new pictures, that kind of stuff. But the ethnography that was done was different. And also ethnography changes, right? Like what we learned about one topic 100 years ago is not going to be the same that we learned about today. And so it's made me more thoughtful about the differences. So there's the ethnographic part of informing projects, but it's maybe more thoughtful about the role of ethnography versus metadata. It's definitely made me think a lot more about data in general, what it tells us what we're learning, how do we get it. And in graduate school, I remember one of my cohort friends pointed out, he's like, you know, if you if you perform the scientific method, and you select the methods to get the data, you know, appropriate for collecting data, of course, you're going to get the data that you expect to get the word the mystery in that. I was like, Well, you know, you do have to take the appropriate method, and you don't always know. And then of course, the the paradigm is a role has a role as well. Collecting a bunch of data doesn't mean you know, anything more, it means you have a lot of data.

Adam  36:47

I spend more time in tech spaces than I do island nations, I'd like to spend more time with other nations. But to your point, like I think there's a really, there's a really valuable, like, I love this idea of like how do we think about ethnography in relationship to metadata and what is like, yeah, what's the collection methods of how are we like, collating it cataloging tagging the data, what are we doing with it, and you know, ethnography as this like, flow of record, you know, in essence, in terms of meaning, and connections and associations. And so it's like putting the data in context. It's been interesting to see, tech companies start to wrestle with that, you know, in the past decade, maybe a little longer, like Xerox PARC has been doing it for since like, the 70s, which is really crazy. In terms of like, trying to bring anthropological thinking into spaces, but then like, yeah, and in Texas, tech spaces, we see it and market research, we're seeing it a little bit more, we're not not quite as much still, you know, the how do we take seriously like the the associative power of anthropology, that, like, I think you said something else is super important that like, like, FSM is like, it matters. They're putting money behind anthropology, right? Like, it's like, we have to invest in this form of thinking, doing knowledge making, you know, sharing, if it's to continue for one, which is like, that's, that's a deal statement, but also true, because it's like, we often find that one of the biggest challenges is that academia does not translate or talk about what it can do elsewhere. And so if we are people working in applied or designing anthropological spaces, you know, that doesn't always translate back either. And so it's this really interesting idea to be like, Well, one way to show is like, what is money going behind, if we can see going behind anthropology anthropologists, like, it's great. And then on top of that, like, I imagine you have a super rich data set of like, the projects where people hired an ethnographer for development or conservation or anything, go a lot better in terms of longevity, and like finance and impact and community engagement and all the things right. And those like that's that itself is like a metadata story. That's not That's not the scientific method, but just great like using the scientific method to pick up data understand stories within like, the bigger picture is like Well, look, this wouldn't have happened like we can see this like this is evidence that this is taking place that like ethnography has value. That's super important, you know, to to see that and it's like very cool to think about that translationally into like tech and in data to

Ashley 38:58

we use water, rainwater catchment water, and it gets filtered and then we can drink that there's also a spring and then there's a lot of bottled water that is imported and purchased. And I didn't understand why this was other than it might be convenient at events funerals, birthdays, weddings, cetera and because they're outside, and then we were on survey in one of the more remote parts of the island or there's a road to it, but the road is so treacherous, Nobody drives there, they take a boat. So we're, you're having conversations with each other around this little like, pool of water. I wanted to like check it out, and they pointed out that there were frogs in there. I was like, Okay, we started talking more about what water is okay to drink what waters not. And they explained that they don't like to drink any other waters in the bottled water because flies land on poop. Frogs eat flies and frogs live in these freshwater sources, so they considered the water dirty. Now from a metadata person Fact if it would be more like, Okay, we know that there are a lot of plastic bottles being thrown away on the island, right? That's your that's your data. And then your metadata would be the maybe the volume of it, or what happens to it, or whatever. But it doesn't tell the part about why it's happening. And I mean, as much as it tries to, it's still something that gets, it can be put into a spreadsheet. I'm not saying that qualitative data can be put into a spreadsheet, it totally can. But it's supposed to be organized. And I think that when I think about ethnography and meta data, that's something that I think that it's, I think that metadata is missing, it's missing the human voice. Just because you collect data doesn't mean it tells you everything. We can collect all the data we want, you know, the metadata, but it's still missing. I think it's missing a human component, a human interaction that that's special. And it has to be described by those who are involved in that conversation. It can't be described by a computer, maybe I'm not an AI. So I don't know, maybe you can tell me that since you're in the tech world.

Adam  41:02

The good thing is AI is not that smart yet. So we're still we're still needed.

Ashley 41:07

It's an interesting concept, I'd like to see them, you know, I'd like to see them try to do that one. We're just so dynamic. You know, culture is not static, all that I'd really like to see somebody develop some code for that. I mean, I'm not unfamiliar with code. I remember writing computer programs. And I always think back to what is it the 5050? When you flip a coin, heads or tails thing? That's it? Yeah. So one of our assignments was to write a heads or tails program. In code, I had to write the algorithm for this. Well, it's no longer random. I had to write the algorithm for this. So I never really think of random as random anymore, because it's not it. To me, there's something behind it that can explain the outcome. So with programming, and when it comes to AI, it still has to be adaptive. And guess who writes that code? Humans write that code? Yep,

Adam  42:06

there's like two things that need to happen there. One is that the so much of the secularized western world could do well, by adding a bit more enchantment to their lives. And then the other side is we can stop, we need to disenchant data as if it's a magic source of truth, you know, especially when it's collected by a heads or tails app that we've that we've written, it's like, that's fine, but think that metadata matters, like how it was created? And who and how, who made it? And what does, what does it do? You know, I agree with you there too, because it's like, interpretation is something only we can do. Like, we're storytelling species. And then we have we interpret everything, right? We give things names, and we give them plate, we have double code languages, right on top of top of languages, and like, you're never gonna see the fact that like, there's a health frog concern, you know, with drinking freshwater versus bottle water, you know, it's like, that's important origin or even, like, understand, yeah, why it is that we do it. We do. I think I think that is really powerful. And it's nice to recognize it. Like, of course, these. There's such value also, in seeing that that comparative perspective, you know, in that regard, we learn actually some of the best stuff by thinking this way to or sorry, what, what do we see there? What do we see here? And like, what are the commonalities and differences in data is an important part that we need to interrogate? Right? Because it's like, it's the stuff that we say we know, but it's like, but how do we know it? How was it made? It gives you what doesn't give you why you

Ashley 43:17

make a really good point, the data is, I don't think you'd said this exactly. But what I got from is the data we extract, but computers can't assign meaning meaning or a program can't assign meaning. And that's something that we do so the interpretation process, and then ascribing that meaning to what we're doing. That's not something that a program can do yet that I'm aware of. So I think it's a really good point that you made once extracted, and once Well, input,

Adam  43:47

really, that's a good point, meaning is meaning as input, like it also was output too. It's kind of both, you know,

Ashley 43:54

yeah, it's definitely there's definitely some output back to Keith Basso. Right.

Adam  43:58

That's right. So coming back to keep assets crazy. I really enjoyed just kind of thinking about the so far, I'm curious to like, what are one or two things that people wouldn't know, you know, that you work as an apologist? Is it surprising? Because it's like, Hey, I was surprised that when we got in contact, I was like, Whoa, you're a cultural anthropologist for the Federated States of Micronesia. Like why and how did that how, but then on top of that, so like, that was surprising in general, but like, on top of that, I know there's there's some, I mean, the stories you've been shared so far, have been super so rich, in terms of the kinds of work that people you meet what you're what you're digging into, but like, what are they wanting, wanting to like, if you're at a party and you want to you want to surprise somebody? What are two things that you'd pull out to? Bet you didn't know I do this. That's a good one. Wow. Or what surprised you when you first started even to it. But another way to think about that. So the things

Ashley 44:45

that my friends are that they've expressed that they're surprised by have to do with entrepreneurship, and then also emotional intelligence and awareness. I think what surprises them the most is that there's so if I think about all Got it as one topic that there are 18 different languages spoken out there, there are four high islands. More importantly, the 18 languages that are spoken, we can we can say that there are 18 different cultural groups. So Micronesia is maybe the larger, and that's a region, right? It's not just deficit. So I think the diversity is surprising, but more that I'm working within that diversity, and juggling several cultures, several languages, not by myself, though, I have co workers. And so we do this together. Sometimes they're surprised that I'm still out there. Because it's a different way of life. It is a very different way of life, you have to really want to live where you live. And I think that growing up, I just didn't see myself living in Georgia. I didn't, but maybe my friends, they just didn't think about living outside of the US or living outside of there. It's not just a US thing, right? My friends all over the world there. They can't imagine living outside of where they are. And that's fine. So I think and then the entrepreneurial acts aspect, I've gotten creative, me and my co workers, we have to come up with creative solutions to carry out what we do. So we've been very resourceful and entrepreneurial about it. I hadn't really thought about that. But my friends pointed it out. more I think about him like, yeah, you're right. That's a that's a good point. Um, so yeah, I think that, I think in terms of work, that's what they're pretty surprised about. And then for me, I think I'm, I'm just surprised that how much I get to bring together all my interests. So linguistics, Spanish, anthropology, geography, conservation, natural resources, the bat, the bat, in kosher AI is a keystone species for the island. And it's responsible for cross pollination of breadfruit. So there are about 40 different types of breadfruit. It's a big part of the mark until way Conservation Area, which we used ethnography and archaeology to inform the boundaries, the site itself. So I think I'm just I think I'm just surprised, and maybe not surprised anymore. I'm just so grateful that I get to bring it all together. Because it's like, I don't have to pick, we get to do all of it. So I think that's pretty cool.

Adam  47:13

That's like such a such an inspirational thing to realize. It's like you don't really have Yeah, you don't have to pick actually, like, there are ways to do this, and bring all the pieces together. Maybe

Ashley 47:21

for me, it's what was missing in academia was being able to apply all this sometimes I sat in the classes, and I just thought, you know, it's nice that we can point out problems, but what are we doing about it, you know, let's go do something about it. We do need academia, don't get me wrong. And I think that with my office in FSM, they're very much aware of that. I do publish not as often as maybe someone in a university, but I do publish, I present it, I do lots of things with my co workers, we write together. And we work with the communities to produce to produce articles that are meaningful and palatable for them as well, things that they want published. So I don't just publish anything, I actually have a report that is never going to be published. Because it's, it's that way. So I

Adam  48:07

love that too. But that's also important to know, because it's like, and I appreciate it too, like a kind of across this conversation, too. It's an interrogation also of like, what does it mean to be an applied anthropologist, but I mean, also, you might agree with me too. It's just like, well, let's just call us anthropologists. We don't need to be applied at applied to it, because because really the reverse of that means unapplied.

Ashley 48:26

I would agree with that. Yeah, I think we're all just raw anthropologist. I mean, even even at an academic academics are, some academic anthropologists do apply to work. Some of them even get called into to comment on policy. But they're also contributing to publication, which I think is a part of being applied. Now. Sometimes it ends up on 10 people's desk, and that's all who will ever read it. But popularizing what we're doing, or like, pop science, right, to make it more palatable, or understandable by people who don't spend a lot of time with this field would be a good thing to do. But that's an age old age old argument. age

Adam  49:06

old conundrum. Right. So the last, the last chunk I want to add to that is like because thinking about I think it's a really great and important point of like, how do we popularize in the work as part of the work? You know, part of the work is like documenting and helping people solve the problems they want to solve using our toolkit. But the other side of it is like, how do we help socialize or popularize that? And so when I saw that you've also been working like to with UNESCO World Heritage Sites, as in an arena of how do we bring different cultural heritage sites, to UNESCO as awareness and then apply for that? That, to me is, I think a really fascinating question circulating around the idea of how do we popularize it means like, different not everybody goes and like knows what a UNESCO World Heritage Site is, but a lot of people do. A lot of people know UNESCO is right. And so this is like a really interesting other way to kind of combine the work of preservation and and conservation, both in terms of like keeping languages and histories alive. Also sites alive, you know, building in entrepreneurship like eco tourism, but then also adding in other possibilities like things like international recognition laws that could protect sites in new ways. So I want to hear just a bit about this part. This is, this is also one of the things that surprised me, when we're kind of like, talking through some ideas in that I think it's very cool and noble to like, be able to have that as part of your work, too. That's like, a UNESCO career. Like we actually need to talk about the these heritage sites. So how did like, I want to hear a bit about that? Like, how did that come up? And three also is another example of like, Yes, do it all.

Ashley 50:43

Our National Historic Preservation Officer, obviously in Kohler, he is he's one of the most enthusiastic people I've met when it comes to historic preservation, historic, historic conservation is what we we've been calling it more recently. So he's, he's wanting to get a unit, he wants to work on one site per island for UNESCO world heritage. And so that has been one of the objectives since he's been the National Historic Preservation Officer. And so we, we actually work to carry that out. And Nan Madol was inscribed in 2016. And now we're working on chuke lagoon, and my you'll steal money site. And then in Koschei, we have, it could be combined, or it could be separate, we don't know. But there's the LELO ruins, which is it's similar in architecture, just a smaller site, by comparison to them at all. And then my cutaway Conservation Area, which would be a mixed site. So they're part of our natural work, those are objectives that we want to do. And we utilize our ethnographic surveys, to help inform that. So it's a very, for us, it's become a systematic process. I think before it was more like, let's see what we can put together. But under the way that the way that we've been doing, it's been systematic, we carry out the surveys that are necessary for preparing the application. And, and there's a lot of, there's a lot of international communication. So it's not just FSM, the United States, it's also professionals who are in Australia or Japan, who have interest in the area. And so it's very much a team effort and cross cultural communication, internet connectivity. There's, there's a lot that goes on. And then increasingly, UNESCO is interested to see LIDAR surveys, on foot surveys, and those are very expensive. So that can challenge our ability to submit a nomination, we do have a lot of things that that we do and, and the National Register is another one of those prestigious things that we were working toward, and we we can have a national, we can participate in the National Register with us, or we can do it on our own. They're both recognized, which is a nice feature to the relationship between FSM in the US, but the Compact of Free Association, when we did the ich nomination. So another aspect of UNESCO, increasingly is that the communities are on board that it's not even that they're on board. I hate this term, getting people on board. It's like highly manipulative, honestly. So we always talk with our communities. First, the islands operate governmentally from the ground up. And so if the communities are not on board, it does not go forward. It just does not. Yeah, so the ich nomination, we have to get in contact with people in the outer islands that get fights maybe once a week, or once every two weeks. And the votes maybe go once every couple of weeks. So it's not an easy thing to get community consensus, but also getting the support at the same time. So you really have to spend a lot of time with the communities and sometimes we went to an outer island and chew, they never heard of UNESCO. How can you how can you ethically? I mean, okay, not us specifically, how can I ethically write an application for an ich nomination? If the people that I'm talking to do not know what it is, I need them to understand the ramifications, both positive and negative. And everything in between? Before I can ethically put an application forward and say, yes, our communities want this. It's just such a big deal. And it has so many impacts. And they are always intent. They're not intended to be that. But they're not always intended to be good. And so it's important that the communities know what it is and how they can use it. So it's just it's a very complicated application, they take time for a reason. It is a very good example of applied anthropology, since we're agreeing that anthropology is just applied. It could be applied across the board, but it is a very good use of anthropology and honestly, writing one of those applications is it's a lot like rocket writing a thesis you can't like you have to give a very concise description of why that element is important and why that element is of outstanding universal value. Just because it exists doesn't mean it's important to everyone. But it's important that we let them know why it's important. And

Adam  55:12

that's also a nice like plugs. So in case you thought your thesis was useless, it's actually quite useful if you're trying to do something big, like, apply for a intangible World Heritage Site.

Ashley 55:22

So I think one of the questions that you had asked, maybe not so directly, but it was about having that recognition, or what it means to have national or international recognition for, for FSN sites. And I want to go back to one of your other podcasts, it was about the 30 meter telescope, that so in 2015, I was there when the proposal was was being put forward. And I was there as part of the outreach team. And as you know, I heard about it all that there were some rules that were broken, basically. And then in 2015, I was teaching a cultural anthropology class. And there were protests from around the world, for that telescope against it, actually. And so I think that's the reason I think that's the, the significance of the international recognition is that others are aware of its importance, and that they can support you because if we just work off of population alone, some sites are so important, but they might only have 100 people that actually live in that area. Right. So when it came to the 30 meter telescope protest videos were sent in from around the world to protest going forward with this telescope. I mean, so I think that's one of the reasons for I'm sure there, there are a lot of them, you know, time doesn't allow, but that's something that really stood out to me when you ask that question. It's

Adam  56:49

there can be a naivety or an excitement that like, oh, we want to get something that's like for ich get an international recognition. But it's like, why, right? And what's it for? And so in this case, that's like, like thinking of Mauna Kea in terms of as a sacred site versus a scientific observatory? How do you actually think about what's what's what's legitimate in that space? And for whom, right. And so international recognition is like, a double edged sword in this case, where it's like, you can protest against it, because you're actually like, building on indigenous sacred land, or, you know, and it's in it then harkens and echoes to colonial problems, right. And it's like eminent domain of like, the government is taking the space. But the international protest can be like No, like this is we actually stand with it with the people. So it is interesting. Yeah, it's like we live in a really interesting era like that we can think about intangible intangible cultural heritage, and fight for it globally. And this is really interesting, and also get recognition. So it's like, yeah, it's a curious time.

Ashley 57:47

Thanks to media platforms, of course. Thanks. Thanks

Adam  57:50

for the low cost of messaging on Facebook Messenger.

Ashley 57:55

I think it was a, it might have been a page on Facebook, where people were posting their videos, some of my students, they, they posted as well. And anyway, so it was, it was beautiful to see that there was a lot of support against the telescope was there. So there are already so many up there. And then the age-old argument, like, Oh, it's good for jobs. Okay, for how

Adam  58:16

long? For whom? Right? Jobs for whom? Right. And, and

Ashley 58:21

then the other age old argument like, oh, well, this is what your ancestors were doing. A long time ago. They were they were looking at the stars. Differently, though. Yeah, it's a different, just a different narrative. And one that really didn't involve the local people that well, so yeah, so it's, but it you're right, it could go the other way, as well. Like, what if people were really like, Yeah, we really need it to be built up there. Okay, we're all going to protest that, that it'd be built there. It could go the other way.

Adam  58:48

That's, I mean, that's like, it's just like, as long as we allow space for people power, right, in terms of like, and that's why I mean, that's I'm quite encouraged to hear just in terms of the way that you're approaching these issues, right in like, what does it mean, to get that international recognition? It's like, we have to get folks on board, and legit ethical questions. So listeners, if you have any, any thoughts of like, what is the ethical question there in terms of like, what can I do ethically, if we're gonna apply for something that the people that need to have consensus with don't know what the thing is? Can we apply? It's a, really, it's an important question, though. You know, I'm, it's, I'm encouraged to hear you're wrestling with it. And because I think it's important, like that's, that's like, the hard but good part of anthropology too. Right. What

Ashley 59:26

is Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's such a central part of, of being an anthropologist to be reflexive to be, I mean, it is, right, we're taught all of that. But the emotional intelligence aspect, and self-awareness. Recognize, you know, it's one thing to write a nomination, there's a lot of prestige, right to to be a person or the group of people that write that nomination, but we really have to put ourselves aside and say, you know, what's, what's best here? How do we best guide and inform our communities of Office things that we had in mind to do, do we? Do we continue to support it? If they say yes, but we don't really see that they understand what it means. And so I think that our office has handled that really well by working with the communities and hearing what they want, how they want to go about it. Because honestly, at the end of the day, let's let's say that we just went forward with a nomination, and we didn't really achieve proper consensus. What happens when you implement care for that site? If they don't know what they're doing? Or they don't know how to do it, or they don't know what it means? Or all of a sudden, they're, like, 1000s of visitors in the backyard? And they're like, Wait, why are these people here, and I'm not collecting a fee. If they didn't know, they could collect a fee, and there's no fee set up? Well, they might be a bit upset. So I think that the more information people have on the front end, the better able they can make decisions and handle things along the way than just having some plan implemented on them, rather than together. And so I think long term, it's just not worth all the hassle. Just because people said yeah, okay, let's do it. And they don't understand the extent of it. So so we do an outreach is a huge part of, of what we do communication and, and having a historic preservation officer. And so each state has a historic preservation officer. And those those positions are very important. Those are the connections to the communities, they, it's important that they're social, that they're well liked, that they are trusted, and that they do a good job, I think more importantly, that they do a good job at all of those things. I was very fortunate to work with a historic preservation officer who had basically been there since the beginning. And he knew all this, he had surveyed almost all the sites that had ever been surveyed. So whenever I had a question, he knew exactly what I was talking about. And then during the pandemic, he, we were trying to get out of the office, because we didn't really know what was going on. So we just thought, you know, let's be outside and open air. And so he took us to historic sites, and he would tell us stories about those sites that he had learned and, and he also was preparing our new Historic Preservation Officer in Koschei. By doing that, so he was imparting his knowledge onto the staff before he retired. So it was, it had multiple purposes, really a beautiful thing. And he was, he was a fantastic officer, he told us that every every day can become history, so we should document it. It was just too cool that he thought in that way, and he's right, you know, someday a building will be 50 years old, and someday a practice might not be practiced anymore. And so he was he was really integral part to our video, ethnography. And he, he taught me a lot about about ethnography and Koschei, in the sense that, you know, we were able to, we were able to move away from me asking the questions and getting them translated by the staff to the elders being prompted with a topic and they impart their knowledge on to the youth. So our ethnography actually doesn't go through me, it goes through it goes directly to the youth, which was the whole point anyways, for the youth to learn, right. So our elders talk with the youth. And they were so excited about one of the topics that we focused on. It was navigation, they had a an hour, vocational hour in high school, and they decided to create a club, the navigation club, and then they would come over to our office twice a week. And we would invite our elders to come share stories about navigation, all kinds of navigation, not just aquatic, and or Marine, then we had a few boats that came into Koschei, that they sailed from New Zealand or Fiji, or you know, whatever. And then we'd have them come in and talk about the importance of ethnography and documentation of navigational knowledge and how it informs GPS devices. And so not only did they hear from their elders, but they heard from people who use the stars, they continue to use the stars, but they also use with GPS devices. So it was the kids were very, they're very into that and created their own club so that they could hang out with historic preservation people twice a week. But our so our officer, he really encouraged that transmission. And it wasn't to like cut me out or anything. But if the point of historic preservation was to share the knowledge with you, I still get to read the transcripts, but the kids get it directly. Why not?

Adam  1:04:24

Thanks once again to Ashley Meredith, for joining me on the podcast today. I can say that I am really inspired and find it empowering to know that there are organizations, country's government offices, interested and willing to put funding and support behind anthropologists and in the political work in the world. There's also this crucial issue of what is heritage preservation and conservation mean today. I found it really valuable to hear Ashley's emphasis on ethics in the communities need to have a say and an understanding of the potential impacts of recognition projects like UNESCO's World Heritage Sites, and intangible cultural heritage. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts. What are some of the roles that you'd like to see more anthropologists or social scientists to learn? Perhaps you know one or maybe you are one, you'd like to share your story on the podcast as well. Hit me up on this Andrew life.org. Also, as we created to Summer and Fall helped me with a ta l takeover. What's that? Well, do you have an idea for an episode or a guest? Have you been itching to interview someone that you admire? Or do you have a story that you want to tell about why anthropology matters in the world today for business, technology, design? Whatever it is, are you interested in writing blog posts to accompany? If so, I want to hear from I'm talking guest hosting interviews, producing and writing. I'm trying an experiment in opening up the ta l mic and newsletter to more voices and writers. So let's collaborate and help me make this tale takeover success. If you're interested, get in contact with me over at this Anthro life.com. As always, I cannot wait to hear from you. It's been a pleasure to be with you and share and listenership and friendship and all the other good stuff in between. So hope to see you next time and as always, I met again well, and this is this Anthro life. See. This episode was produced and edited by MIT Nichols with whisper and mutter.